Skate tongue? Leather options? Let's discuss boots while I ponder order options

[AlbaNY]

What do you love about them?

They felt really fantastic gliding compared to the old blades, like, crossovers, power stroking, and such felt so smooth and buttery.   
Forward spins practically disappeared for a few minutes, but once I went back to Coach Awesome's beginning way (standing like a scarecrow and pushing with my toe to get the spin going and to the right spot that way) it was like BAM!...  Going and going with the tiniest little centred tracings.  Camel and sit spins felt significantly easier, and I think that once I'm used to these I'll definitely spin a lot better than I've been managing so far.  (Back spins felt about the same level as before on these for a few minutes until also starting to feel a bit easier.)

Mostly it's the smooth feel.  I don't know how else to express it, but I can sure tell I'm on better equipment.  In reviewing video to edit for a Youtube post I thought I looked a little like a more experienced skater now too... something about the flow and edges?  However, I hadn't reviewed much footage in a few weeks besides spins and can't be sure I didn't just actually skate a bit better recently than a month ago or something? 

[AlbaNY]

It is probably about halfway through the wait for these boots, and I want to update that I have asked to lower the stiffness level.   

I've finally been convinced.  So, they'll be at least two levels less stiff than my current boots (more if the fitter strongly recommends it.)  Between the short ice season in Germany (I'm not as willing to lose the estimated month of break in he expected for me not to mention struggling to regain skills,) the feel of the Klingbiels that I got for PICskate frames, and re-reading my skate journal only to discover that I skated through shin pain a lot longer than I remembered (more than a year longer)...  Softer boots it is.

[Query]

BTW, do you plan to join a Synchro or Production team? If so, do you know if then require a particular boot color?

[AlbaNY]

BTW, do you plan to join a Synchro or Production team? If so, do you know if then require a particular boot color?

I was kindly invited join a synchro team, and I would have liked to to, but life stuff prevents it, and I don't foresee that in my future either.  I doubt I'll ever be good enough (or free from life stuff) to join a show requiring tan, but I have those too.  I'm competing now, but it looks difficult to keep doing that much after my move to Europe.   :'(

I am getting the pale grey suede customs, am keeping and renewing the tongue/relining/reducing stiffness of my current "normal" white pair, and I also have the skates in light tan suede on the way now too.   

[Loops]

I was kindly invited join a synchro team, and I would have liked to to, but life stuff prevents it, and I don't foresee that in my future either.  I doubt I'll ever be good enough (or free from life stuff) to join a show requiring tan, but I have those too.  I'm competing now, but it looks difficult to keep doing that much after my move to Europe.   :'(

I am getting the pale grey suede customs, am keeping and renewing the tongue/relining/reducing stiffness of my current "normal" white pair, and I also have the skates in light tan suede on the way now too. 

This can be done?  If so I'm on the horn to Jackson tomorrow.  I know they can rebuild......didn't know than can ...unbuild?

[AlbaNY]

This can be done?  If so I'm on the horn to Jackson tomorrow.  I know they can rebuild......didn't know than can ...unbuild?

Harlick definitely does it, but I don't know about Jackson.  Harlick does such things to other brands too, according to the site.  https://www.harlick.com/repairs
It's $75 to reduce stiffness and $100 to increase it.   

[Nate]

They felt really fantastic gliding compared to the old blades, like, crossovers, power stroking, and such felt so smooth and buttery.   

I can vouch for this.  I am a bit perplexed by them because people generally speak of them as good blades for jumping, but they actually felt more optimal for the actual skating.  I'd probably do moves in the field on them, but I actually find the gold seal profile and pick cluster better for jumping - especially toe jumps.  The Patterns actually felt REALLY good for edge jumps because the lift angle is so low.  You get to the picks faster, so you can actually put a lot of power into pushing up into edge jumps.  Plus, the drag pick is tapered, which really facilitates pivoting up into those jumps.  With Toe Jumps... they make me hammer because of how prone the picks are to slippage.

I can't spin on them, though.  The blade's neutral balance point feels further back compared to any other blade I've skated on, which is too big of an adjustment on spins... but probably why they feel so good to skate on.  That does make things like turns and crossovers easier, as it basically allows you to skate with better alignment and posture without feeling like you're going to pitch forwards or backwards.  When I swapped to them, my MITF all improved noticeably.  Like, to an almost shocking degree.  Everything was better, and at a higher speed with better posture and it all felt more stable.


EDIT:  I do think my Pinnacles "maintain" speed/flow better than the Pattern 99s, but they always felt a bit "pitchy" to me due to how rounded the blade is... and the lift angle for edge jumps is a bit too much for me.

[Nate]

It is probably about halfway through the wait for these boots, and I want to update that I have asked to lower the stiffness level.   

I've finally been convinced.  So, they'll be at least two levels less stiff than my current boots (more if the fitter strongly recommends it.)  Between the short ice season in Germany (I'm not as willing to lose the estimated month of break in he expected for me not to mention struggling to regain skills,) the feel of the Klingbiels that I got for PICskate frames, and re-reading my skate journal only to discover that I skated through shin pain a lot longer than I remembered (more than a year longer)...  Softer boots it is.

Are you concerned about going to a lower stiffness?  I always feel that if I go to a stiffer boot, I cannot go back to a softer boot.  I skated in my Risport RF-1 Elites Monday (90 Rating for Risport - the highest they offer, these boots are still fairly new) to give my feet a rest from my too-narrow Jackson Elite Supremes (85 Rating) while I wait on a new Rapid Custom pair to come in.  Those boots felt like Risports RF-3's because my muscles had already gotten used to the Jacksons.

The only way to get them to feel supportive was to tie them so tight that I was cutting off the circulation in my feet.

[AlbaNY]

Nate, I am definitely worried about going down in stiffness.  I am so used to the crazy stiff boots that less stiff seemed impossible.  I actually also tend to tie them too tight in the ankle often.    I can bend in them totally fine, but the break in on the new totally stiff pair sounds daunting with the limited ice season in Germany. 

The pair I tried yesterday felt a bit scary for baby little jumps, but I am going to try them again tomorrow.  I am convinced to go a little lower in stiffness but maybe not as much as Coach Cheerful would prefer.  I also emailed Harlick about the changes and explaining my level, ambitions, and about the stiffness I am used to, because I hope they might suggest which stiffness to switch to. 

The lace bite yesterday made evaluating things a little more tough, so I have to remember to cut up some foam.  It may make a big difference for the jumps not to have laces cutting in.   

I think I do hammer on toe jumps in the Pattern 99s too, but I love the toe picks all the same because they feel quite reliable.  I learned to spin on the infamous Aspire XPs, so I guess I can manage to spin on anything.  The Coronation Aces made it intriguingly easy though.  I am looking forward to messing around spinning on them again.  Switching to Pattern 99 improved my skating the same way you mention.  That was lovely, and these Aces feel just as nice.

The Aces are too long for my boots, so using those isn't really an option, and I would be concerned about getting parabolics sharpened properly.  They are so nice though!

[Query]

FWIIW, some people are allergic to some materials used in some shoes and boots.

The advantage of sticking with what you know, if it created no reaction before, is that it probably still won't.

Then again, shoe allergies aren't super-common. 

I would guess, though I could be wrong, that synthetic closed cell foam would biodegrade less easily than lamb's wool
though almost anything used in shoes and boots is treated with anti-fungal agents and other poisons which slow biodegradability, and tend to prevent things from living in them.

[tstop4me]

A subset of people are allergic to ice (https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24629-cold-urticaria). For a subsubset of these people, contact with ice could prove fatal.  And prolonged contact with the ice could reduce biodegradability of resultant corpses, should they remain undisturbed (https://secretsoftheice.com/ice-mummies/).  But I would guess, though I could be wrong, that most Zamboni drivers would remove corpses from the ice surface before they perform a resurfacing operation (I'm not an expert on how Zamboni drivers deal with corpses on the ice surface). ... And there is the separate intriguing issue of how rink operators deal with corpses under the ice surface (https://the-blacklist.fandom.com/wiki/Julian_Gale#%E2%80%9CPhilomena%E2%80%9D).

[Query]

Tstop4me, I know you are just having fun at my expense. But I assume anyone allergic to cold probably realized long ago they should stay away from winter sports. Likewise, I know someone with a heat allergy, specifically Rosacea, who doesn't soak in hot tubs.

OTOH, allergies to the fabrics in clothing (and to detergents, fragrances, whiteners, softeners, etc.) are very common. E.g., wool makes me itch, and turned out, along with Tide detergent, to be the main reason for the acne that I lived with for most of my life. (I do not have an obvious physical reaction to wearing wool suits - maybe because it is treated in way that make it softer and less abrasive.) It took me a long time to realize that - dermatologists were no help, they kept treating me with antibiotics like tetracycline that were completely ineffective - for me. If you have a skin problem, sometimes you have to figure the causes out for yourself.

I know a fair number of other people who eventually developed reactions to fabrics or the chemicals used to clean and treat them, after repeated exposure. E.g., I wonder if boot makers are ever asked not to use "chrome tanned leather", the most common type, for that reason.

But if I liked the way a particular material felt against my skin, and it created no adverse reactions, I would use it, no matter what someone else said. Alba asks a lot of questions about these things, no doubt hoping not to waste money on expensive boots and blades, but some of them really do come down to personal preference.

[AlbaNY]

But I would guess, though I could be wrong, that most Zamboni drivers would remove corpses from the ice surface before they perform a resurfacing operation (I'm not an expert on how Zamboni drivers deal with corpses on the ice surface).

I think the protocol is to push it off the ice with a broom to make sure the ice would be perfect for the next hockey group and hopefully without taking more than the ten allotted minutes.  Unless the goalies offer to scoot it around out of the way like a net, of course.

[AlbaNY]

Query, I get chilblains easily, have dysautonomia that makes body temperature regulation a problem, and have I raynauds that should all make me avoid the cold of the rink.  I'm not wise though, so here I am a skater anyway.   

I seem fine with all wool, but I went for the leather lined option after all.  It'll give some more stiffness and longevity to the tongue.
The wool for suits is much higher quality merino with longer and finer fibres, so it shouldn't itch.  Other wool for sweaters or blankets can be more coarse and with shorter fibres that make more scratchy fabrics.  The other issue is if lanolin causes trouble, I suppose, but higher grade wool fibres can be quite nice.

[tstop4me]

I think the protocol is to push it off the ice with a broom to make sure the ice would be perfect for the next hockey group and hopefully without taking more than the ten allotted minutes.  Unless the goalies offer to scoot it around out of the way like a net, of course.

That's right, among your many talents, you are a Zamboni driver.  Thanks for the inside scoop!   

[supersharp]

Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes.  Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...

[Loops]

Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes.  Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...

 

[AlbaNY]

Good to know, I had guessed the Zam driver would lasso the corpse and hydroplane it along behind the machine so as to not take more than the 10 allotted minutes.  Afterwards, if people complained about the ice quality, Zam driver would point to the corpse and perhaps insinuate that the corpse had made a similar comment about ice quality earlier...

 

[AlbaNY]

I have an update on my skates.  Today I missed a call from Harlick while on the Zamboni, but I was able to reach them when I called back. 

I was surprised to hear that the custom pair will not be ready until November or December!  Wow.  Jason was apologetic about that and a need for more help in the workshop.  Skate boot making would be an absolute dream job for me if I were in the Bay area, and we chatted about that idea since I have some relevant training.  A part of me is thinking “forget Germany and move to California!!!”   

Anyway, the excellent news is that my inline pair will be shipped back to me beginning of next week.  Yay!  He already put in new stiffening and just had eyelets to add, a Klingbeil hook, and to repair the tongues.  I’m glad to hear that the suede doesn’t need to be replaced, just the foam, and he can add the leather lining.  I’m excited to try them out in about a week!

This reminds me that I shaved a big chunk of the white paint off one boot while working on jumps with Coach Aweome, and then today Coach Cheerful took off another chunk off the other boot accidentally stepping on my foot today.  My current boots are starting to look really, really rough.  I forgot to bring paint with me to make them nicer for the competition tomorrow too.  Oops.  They feel really comfortable lately at least. 

[Nate]

Are you concerned about going to a lower stiffness?  I always feel that if I go to a stiffer boot, I cannot go back to a softer boot.  I skated in my Risport RF-1 Elites Monday (90 Rating for Risport - the highest they offer, these boots are still fairly new) to give my feet a rest from my too-narrow Jackson Elite Supremes (85 Rating) while I wait on a new Rapid Custom pair to come in.  Those boots felt like Risports RF-3's because my muscles had already gotten used to the Jacksons.

The only way to get them to feel supportive was to tie them so tight that I was cutting off the circulation in my feet.

I've had the Rapid Custom Jacksons for a couple of months and have worn them about 25 minutes... most of which spent heat molding them.  I doubt I will ever skate a session on them.

The footbed on the M and Wide are literally identical, so I have the same issue where the footbed isn't wide enough for my feet resulting in my being completely unable to get a balanced mounting with them, because it isn't "actually wide enough" for my foot.  All they do is add a little more room accommodation in the upper, but it literally doesn't matter if the footbed is still too narrow for the foot of the person that has to wear them.

Practically speaking, they just send me the same "too narrow" boot and stamped it with a W instead of an M.  Waste of money.

If I had known that, I wouldn't have bothered.  I'd have just paid the $2-2.5K or so to fly out to Harlick and have them measure and build me a pair.

The back of the arch (before the heel) of the footbed for my SP-Teri boots is a whole quarter of an inch wider than the Wide Jacksons, which is literally identical in width to the Medium Width Jacksons.

And the heel is equally as narrow, so if I were to try to force myself to wear them, heel bumps and Achilles Tendonitis is probably a guarantee.

[Query]

Nate, you make it sound like "Rapid Custom Jackson" boots are basically no different than any other non-custom but heat moldable boot.  Is that true?

A question is whether you can do anything at all useful with those boots.

If the heat moldable part includes the top of the toe box, maybe you could add a little height to the footbeds by inserting extra insoles, and then re-heat-molding the boots. That wouldn't work on all boots, maybe not most boots, because boots are usually built narrower, not wider, up top - it depends just how heat moldable they are, and where - but it might be worth a try if you can't think of anything else to do with the boots.


You could also contact Jackson (NOT your pro shop), and ask if they have any advice. Maybe, for a "nominal" fee, they would rebuild them with a wider footbed. I'm not sure that is possible, but it doesn't hurt to ask.


BTW, didn't someone mention that Harlick (or maybe it was sometimes rebuilds other people's boots? I Jackson won't, I wonder if they could do anything.

[Query]

Nate: I assume that you did first try removing your insoles, to see if that gave you enough empty space, since, as I said, most boots are larger towards the bottom.

I eventually did that on my old Klingbeils. It wasn't really enough for me, but they became slightly tolerable.

[tstop4me]

I've had the Rapid Custom Jacksons for a couple of months and have worn them about 25 minutes... most of which spent heat molding them.  I doubt I will ever skate a session on them.

The footbed on the M and Wide are literally identical, so I have the same issue where the footbed isn't wide enough for my feet resulting in my being completely unable to get a balanced mounting with them, because it isn't "actually wide enough" for my foot.  All they do is add a little more room accommodation in the upper, but it literally doesn't matter if the footbed is still too narrow for the foot of the person that has to wear them.

Practically speaking, they just send me the same "too narrow" boot and stamped it with a W instead of an M.  Waste of money.

If I had known that, I wouldn't have bothered.  I'd have just paid the $2-2.5K or so to fly out to Harlick and have them measure and build me a pair.

The back of the arch (before the heel) of the footbed for my SP-Teri boots is a whole quarter of an inch wider than the Wide Jacksons, which is literally identical in width to the Medium Width Jacksons.

And the heel is equally as narrow, so if I were to try to force myself to wear them, heel bumps and Achilles Tendonitis is probably a guarantee.

If you ordered Rapid Custom, I assume you went to a Jackson authorized tech.  Is that correct?  If so, the tech is responsible for the measurements, tracings, and scans [if your tech has the Jackson scanner; the scanner gave wrong results for me].  And Jackson is responsible for proper execution.  If they don't fit, I would expect a new pair that does or a refund.

[Nate]

I have about 10 different pairs of insoles here.  There is no way to skate in Jackson's without insoles.  There are metal plates and jagged stable edges in the heels/down the footbed, and the screws aren't totally flush with the metal plates (same on my SP Teris, so not a Jackson-specific thing).  I'd kill my feet.  Beyond that, the footbed simply isn't wide enough.  Lol.  It's just something that I've come to accept.  Bad skates for my feet.  I assumed going from a Medium to Wide boot would mean I get a wider footbed on the boot.  That just sort of seems like a reasonable assumption to me.  But it's literally a Normal/Medium width footbed with a little more leather added to the upper for room there.  The increase in width doesn't - at all - address the core issue of not having a stable base for my foot to rest on, so the boots are unusable no matter how "comfortable" they may feel.  They do feel amazing, as long as I am not standing in them or skating on them (as long as they don't have to support me).

I ordered Superfeet Pro Hockey (Yellow) and Currex HockeyPro insoles.  The Superfeet came in, and they don't work in the Jacksons.  They cannot quite seat properly because of how narrow the footbed is, so the boot fit is adversely affected when they're in there, as the footbed is just pushing heavily across the side of the boot due to how narrow the bottom of the boot actually is.  This does help heel fit a little bit, though, Lol.

I did put the SuperFeet in my SP-Teri KT2's, and they actually feel kind of glorious there, which almost feels like cruel irony.  Totally different feel from the "old" SuperFeet Yellow (wider, less aggressive arch, tapered from outside to inside in the ball, thinner, etc.), and just standing on the floor I can absolutely feel a massive difference.  So, I think I'm going to get blades mounted on those and see how they works. 

The Currex HockeyPro Insoles are coming in tomorrow and I'll see if those work.  Whichever ones work best I'll keep and return the others.  There's a 60-day guarantee on both of them.

The reason to get Rapid Custom was to get the correct width and also get split sizing.  I wanted full customs, but he kind of advised against it (not explicitely, but... heavily and obviously implied... over and over again).

If I decide to skate after this, I will just fly out to the Bay Area and get fitted at Harlick's.

[Nate]

My experience with contacting Jackson directly was... interesting.  Blatant rudeness and disregard while they CC'd everything up the corporate ladder, only to end up saying "talk to your fitter" (would have been most appreciated as a first reply).