skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Bill_S on June 15, 2019, 11:26:09 AM
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I've been daydreaming about getting a real powered skate sharpener lately. I found that both Wissota and Blademaster make small units suitable for a home shop. Set up with some accessories, they would cost about $1500. Wissota has a sale going on right now.
The Blademaster has smaller grinding wheels (3" diameter) which should be better at sharpening just behind the toe picks. Wissota wheels are 7" diameter. I'm also not sure how important it would be either way. But small wheels will wear faster.
Does anyone have experience with either sharpening system? It's still at the daydream stage, but it's not an outlandish idea. A traditional skate sharpener would open up the possibility of sharpening thin dance blades, taper blades, and other unusual blade geometries.
EDIT: Here are the links to machines that I'm considering. The Wissota package is for hockey skates, so I'd need to add/substitute a couple of things for figure skates.
https://wissota.com/product/clean-skate-sharpener (https://wissota.com/product/clean-skate-sharpener)
http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/portable-machines/598-spb750.html (http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/portable-machines/598-spb750.html)
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Looks like we're having the same daydream. Here's a related thread that I started in 2016: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7239.msg86312#msg86312 (skim it first because one of the answers had missing info that led to confusion; later cleared up).
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I THOUGHT my daydream sounded familiar! Thanks for the link. It appears that someone else brought up the Wissota grinding wheel size too.
I'll have to do some drawings to scale to judge how much it may affect sharpening.
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Here's a scale drawing of size 10-1/2 Coronation Aces showing the "dead zone" behind the toe picks not reached by a 7" grinding wheel.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_grinding_wheel.gif)
It's better than I thought, a mere 0.7 inches. Surprisingly, the 3" grinding wheel (dashed circle) isn't that much different. Both can reach where the blade will never contact the ice.
If the blade is tilted forward to contact the ice picks, the last bit of blade to reach the ice is well beyond the "dead zone" for either grinding wheel.
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Here's a scale drawing of size 10-1/2 Coronation Aces showing the "dead zone" behind the toe picks not reached by a 7" grinding wheel.
It's better than I thought, a mere 0.7 inches. Surprisingly, the 3" grinding wheel (dashed circle) isn't that much different. Both can reach where the blade will never contact the ice.
If the blade is tilted forward to contact the ice picks, the last bit of blade to reach the ice is well beyond the "dead zone" for either grinding wheel.
Good analysis of the dead zone. Another advantage of the larger diameter wheel: For the same rotational speed [revolutions per minute (rpm)], the larger diameter wheel has a higher linear speed [surface feet per minute (sfpm)]. This typically will provide a smoother surface finish (assuming the motor has adequate torque).
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Good analysis of the dead zone. Another advantage of the larger diameter wheel: For the same rotational speed [revolutions per minute (rpm)], the larger diameter wheel has a higher linear speed [surface feet per minute (sfpm)]. This typically will provide a smoother surface finish (assuming the motor has adequate torque).
This is a guess, but I think that a smaller wheeled machine may be what was responsible for my blades having an appearance of a perpendicular line across them every millimeter or two. It wasn't just visible - I could feel tiny variations in the sharpening depth, meaning that the bottoms of my blade were not very flat but rather more like a wave pattern, meaning more friction on the ice. I used to use a small teardrop-shaped hand sharpening stone with a smaller radius than my sharpening (which I haven't been able to find another of since) to smooth it out after each sharpening, as this would make it feel better when skating. I've moved since then, and whatever the last sharpener used on my blades, left a much smoother surface without any manual buffing needed. A larger wheel will not wear down as fast (changing ROH as it does so). My instinct would be to go for the larger wheel.
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Irregular sharpening undulations are operator error. It takes a steady hand and smooth motion. Maybe he had too much coffee? ;D
I'm OK with the larger wheel because the smaller one doesn't change the "dead zone" nearly as much as I thought. So much for intuition!
It's a big chunk of change to buy one, and is self-indulgent for a really old guy like me. Perhaps it will remain a daydream.
But daydreams are fun. So are toys.
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It's a big chunk of change to buy one, and is self-indulgent for a really old guy like me. Perhaps it will remain a daydream.
But daydreams are fun. So are toys.
Same here. I’d love to invest in one and learn to do it well at some point, though it makes no financial sense! It would be great to have complete control over the quality of sharpening on my own skates. Maybe someday...
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Fascinating! I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfu7NVUFu8o around 10 minutes in, and the guy making the video is showing off a 100-year-old or so figure skating blade. It's both tapered and has crosscut toepicks. Here I thought those were more modern innovations!
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A traditional skate sharpener would open up the possibility of sharpening thin dance blades, taper blades, and other unusual blade geometries.
Sorry you couldn't make do with 1/2" ROH. If you could have, the old Berghman hand skate sharpeners, still available for $5-$10 used, could have handled any of these, because of the adjustable gap, and the fact that you could easily have added a compressible foam tape to each side of that gap to handle variable side honing, such as tapirs, parabolic shapes, and dovetail cuts.
But do I recall you have machine shop skills? I don't, but maybe an equivalent to the Berghman tools, but with your preferred ROH, would be within your abilities to make. Looking at them, from what I recall of high school shop (it's been a very long time), you may just need to cut the two thick sheet metal pieces to shape, use sheet metal bending tools, drill holes, and add a couple bolts, a couple wingnuts, and a couple springs. You may not even need a milling machine if you bend the sheet metal just right. You can get cylindrical stones a number of different places (including from your Pro-Filer). The patents are long expired, so you could even sell them to the rest of us.
I guess if you want to experiment with adding your own side-honing to existing blades, you do need something like a milling machine? That isn't something the pro shop tools I've seen are designed to do.
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This is a guess, but I think that a smaller wheeled machine may be what was responsible for my blades having an appearance of a perpendicular line across them every millimeter or two. It wasn't just visible - I could feel tiny variations in the sharpening depth, meaning that the bottoms of my blade were not very flat but rather more like a wave pattern, meaning more friction on the ice. I used to use a small teardrop-shaped hand sharpening stone with a smaller radius than my sharpening (which I haven't been able to find another of since) to smooth it out after each sharpening, as this would make it feel better when skating. I've moved since then, and whatever the last sharpener used on my blades, left a much smoother surface without any manual buffing needed. A larger wheel will not wear down as fast (changing ROH as it does so). My instinct would be to go for the larger wheel.
I had a similar issue with one sharpener who used the Incredible Edger machine. It did use a small diameter wheel (I can't find the specs on the web anymore, but I think it was only 2-1/2" or 3" diam). But the main issue wasn't the small diam per se (though that was a contributing factor), it was the low-torque motor. The skate tech gave me a demo. If he used a very light touch, there would be sufficient chatter to produce the transverse grind marks. If he used a heavier touch to reduce the chatter, the motor would tend to stall.
Another skate tech I went to used a high-end Blackstone machine with the typical larger diam wheel (7" or 8" diam). He was an excellent tech, but he did leave residual chatter marks (though not as pronounced as the guy with the Incredible Edger). He hand buffed the surface of the hollow using a method similar to yours. There are abrasive-stone grinding bits mounted on a shaft to be used with electric drills or rotary tools (such as Dremel). One is a nominally conical stone with a rounded tip. The tech fashioned a crude guide block out of a piece of wood to hold the conical stone, which he used to hand-polish the hollow. The manufacturers of sharpening machines often recommend using a finer grit wheel or wax for a better final finish. But this tech preferred to hand polish (each solution has its pluses and minuses; e.g., a separate finish wheel requires either swapping wheels or a second station).
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Wow - hand polishing with a Dremel or drill! - that must take incredible hand-eye coordination and fine motor control to get right.
I wonder if the use of a polishing fluid - or maybe just an ordinary light oil - would smooth out oscillations and chatter. A lot of skate techs use something like that, when they are being careful. And, if my high school shop info isn't too out of date, oil applied to the object being worked on is also very common in metal shop work, which sharpening actually is. Wouldn't help if the machine is underpowered, but a lubricant helps create clean edges even with hand sharpening, grinding and cutting tools. I don't know enough to explain why though. Maybe without a lubricant, the sharpening, grinding or cutting tool alternately sticks and slips - but that is just a guess. Or maybe the lubricant helps carry away excess heat?
Another issue - it may be important to clean away the filings frequently. If you have a lot of filings hanging around, it might mess up the grind.
I once played for a little bit with one of the old single-wheel Blademasters. It was not underpowered. Even with a coarse grit wheel, it could take off the metal all too fast. But I can't tell you the model #. I'm doubtful that is a problem with any professional grade tool, because they are frequently used for hour after hour. An underpowered motor might burn out if used that way.
I was once told by an electrician that motors that are stronger than needed for a job last much longer than ones that are barely strong enough. He thought it had something to do with how long they stay in "start mode", and with the operating temperature of the windings. He also told me to stay away from devices with motors intended for other voltages or frequencies, even if the differences are small. Also, connect it directly to your A/C outlet - many extension cords and cube taps slightly cut voltage, which kills motors fast. And try to not to put anything with a big switching power supply [UPS, computer, etc.] on the same circuit, because harmonics also mess up motors. Given the cost of these units, you want it to last as long as possible.
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Wow - hand polishing with a Dremel or drill! - that must take incredible hand-eye coordination and fine motor control to get right.
Just to clarify. The skate tech did not use a power tool. He used an abrasive bit designed to be used in a power tool, but without the power tool itself. As I mentioned above, he fashioned a crude guide from a block of wood to hold the bit. The guide and bit were then slid back-and-forth along the blade [similar to what you would do with a Pro-Filer] to hand polish the hollow. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Just wanted Casey to know that suitable stones are readily available if you know where to look.
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Oh. I misread what you said.
Do you feel that could do as good a job as a skate sharpening machine?
There are round abrasive cylinders available for drills, that could match the common hollow radii (listed by diameter=2*radius): I've seen them at Harbour Freight.
Also, you can find a variety of cylindrical stones of the proper diameter, sometimes cheaper than Pro-Filer cylinders, by using a search engine and looking for:
abrasive round stone
drum sander
sanding drum
cylindrical stone
abrasive cylinder
or, in less durable materials,
abrasive sleeve
spiral band
sanding sleeve
or, for use in a drill or similar tool
mandril
mandrel
arbor
They are sold in many sizes, compositions (a variety of abrasive powders, such as aluminum oxide and diamond dust, embedded in a variety of resins), and grit sizes, for a variety of applications.
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The Precision Blade Honing Enterprises web site that I linked in another topic sells this for use after grinding...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/precision_blade_hone.jpg)
It uses sandpaper wrapped around the aluminum cylinders in the photo. You change the paper when it wears out. There are two grits for use when polishing. Very clever!
(Sorry for the quality of the photo. I snagged it from their web site and had to up-res it to be a useful size.)
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The stone I used was rectangular with two rounded edges - one smaller than the other. The large one was shallower than my ROH, a tighter curve than a pen has, and the other was a very small curve. I'd mostly use the wider end, and keep it centered in the hollow with my fingers gliding over the sides of the blade. I could shift it a bit more towards the inside or outside edge. It took quite a lot of passes to get the blade to a point I was happy with, as it was a fine stone that did not take off much metal. "Chatter" is the perfect word to describe the effect on my blades that I was doing that process to remove. I feel like a wheel shape would be a lot harder to control by hand than a stone with a straight edge, but maybe I'm wrong.
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The Precision Blade Honing Enterprises web site that I linked in another topic sells this for use after grinding...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/precision_blade_hone.jpg)
It uses sandpaper wrapped around the aluminum cylinders in the photo. You change the paper when it wears out. There are two grits for use when polishing. Very clever!
(Sorry for the quality of the photo. I snagged it from their web site and had to up-res it to be a useful size.)
Cool, I saw that mentioned in one of their videos, but hadn't looked into it yet. That definitely looks like a good tool!
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Do you feel that could do as good a job as a skate sharpening machine?
The end results were good. His customers included hi-level skaters who were super finicky about their edges. We were all disappointed when he moved away.
He was able to use one simple tool for all ROH's and all blade types. He preferred this technique, rather than dealing with a separate finishing wheel or finishing wax. But his success depended on a lot of manual skill and experience; a random tech would not be able to pull this off.
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The stone I used was rectangular with two rounded edges - one smaller than the other. The large one was shallower than my ROH, a tighter curve than a pen has, and the other was a very small curve. I'd mostly use the wider end, and keep it centered in the hollow with my fingers gliding over the sides of the blade. I could shift it a bit more towards the inside or outside edge. It took quite a lot of passes to get the blade to a point I was happy with, as it was a fine stone that did not take off much metal. "Chatter" is the perfect word to describe the effect on my blades that I was doing that process to remove. I feel like a wheel shape would be a lot harder to control by hand than a stone with a straight edge, but maybe I'm wrong.
The stone my tech used wasn't a wheel; it's similar to (though not exactly the same as) this: https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-84922-Silicon-Carbide-Grinding/dp/B00004UDKD/ref=sr_1_43?keywords=conical+grinding+stone&qid=1560943405&s=gateway&sr=8-43 . It is hard to hold by itself; that's why he fashioned a wooden guide block for it.
I have a rectangular stone with rounded ends similar to what you described. I made it by manually rounding the ends of a standard rectangular stone against a concrete step. Should you need one in the future and can't find one commercially available, you can fashion one for yourself fairly readily, since it doesn't require a precision radius.
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Great idea, thank you!
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Wish that I was traveling to New Jersey right now. On the auction site, There's a lightly used Wissota 911 on a stand with vacuum attachment for only $525. The description claims only 3 hours of running time.
That's about a third of the cost of a new one. I've spent more than that on ProFiler hand-sharpening kits over the years.
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Wish that I was traveling to New Jersey right now. On the auction site, There's a lightly used Wissota 911 on a stand with vacuum attachment for only $525. The description claims only 3 hours of running time.
That's about a third of the cost of a new one. I've spent more than that on ProFiler hand-sharpening kits over the years.
It's a bit of a haul from Ohio, but hey, why not?! You only live once, and you can make a weekend out of it!
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If I was still young and single, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And I did drive to NJ once for the purchase of a large photo copy stand from an individual.
But now I have to answer to a higher authority.
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Can't you find something else on the auction site that your higher authority would like? She can come along! Do you think she would notice that $525 extra purchase? :)
BTW, make sure whatever you get is a model you can lift and carry to your vehicle, and to the place you plan to put it. The big ones are heavy.
You probably wouldn't have worn out the Pro-Filer so quickly this time if you'd let a pro shop redo the ROH. I did the same thing once, and had to buy another stone. Pro-Filers are fine for touch-ups, but not for serious modifications.
(Unless Pro-Filers have changed, you only need to buy the new round stone, from Pro-Filer or elsewhere, not the whole kit. On mine, you can remove the pin that keeps the stone in with a pin punch, or equivalent.)
However, it sounds like you have decided you want a powered sharpening tool, so I bet you get one, one way or another. Tell us about your experiences!
While it might seem like the powered sharpener is a good deal economically, it is possible it will take off enough extra metal, compared to the hand tool, to more than make up for the cost of new Pro-Filer stones. I haven't found a skate tech who can take off less than about 0.003" on a competent sharpening with a powered sharpener. And the first few times, if your first tries are like my abortive tries, you will take off a good deal more metal at first.
Which incidentally means you shouldn't start with your good blades. Use old ones, or used ones. Rinks sometimes throw out old rentals, and may give them away if you ask.
Make your first attempts at centering the wheel on both sides of the blade, with the machine turned off (so you just scratch the metal), or by the time you are done, there won't be anything left of your blade. Also, before even doing the scratch, make sure you are close to centered, on both sides by using a precision calipers. And de-warp the blade if needed. (Some fancy blade holders clamp it straight.)
It's very important you get a incrementally adjustable blade holder - if you get one that holds the blade by pressure, so you loosen a bolt, move the blade, re-tighten, and try again, you will waste even more metal.
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Which incidentally means you shouldn't start with your good blades. Use old ones, or used ones. Rinks sometimes throw out old rentals, and may give them away if you ask.
This, absolutely. I’ve found skates at thrift stores for a few dollars too. That reminds me of some boots I deserve to sell soon!
Bill, you might contact the seller and ask them about shipping even though they don’t advertise it being available. It’s relatively cheap to ship heavy items via Greyhound, which most people don’t even realize. They just need to make a box (wood works best), drop it off at their nearest Greyhound station, and you pick it up at yours. I’ve used this suggestion to successfully get several “local pickup only” items shipped.
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I bought the Blademaster SBP750 you mentioned in your first post about 3 years ago. In our town we are about 2-3 hours from the nearest good sharpener and I got to know him and spent half a day with him when I took a dozen pairs of our clubs skaters skates to get sharpened one day and he taught me the ins and outs of sharpening. He gave me a half dozen blades to practice with and I started sharpening skates for our local skaters. At $15/pair I paid the unit off in just under three years. It was an investment, but I will be able to do for years to come. Not a get rich quick thing at all, but rewarding!
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Thanks for sharing your experiences with a power sharpener. That puts you in rare air on this board!
I still look at the Wissota and Blademaster sites occasionally - just yesterday in fact!. I still entertain the idea of buying one. I just wish the prices were lower like the Wissota sale in early June.
Because you have used one, what are some of the things to watch for when sharpening? I assume that continuous cuts with light pressure are the way to go, but I assume that there is more "art" to it than just that.
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I’ve owned a Sparx for 7 months and its brilliant. $1000 including figure skate adapter, but it doesn’t work with all figure skate blades. I have hockey skates, and do one pass before skating, four passes is a full sharpen. You need to buy a grinding wheel for each hollow. I keep mone in a spare room, no nasty metal sparks, no metal dust. They sometimes have sales, $100 or so less.
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I have indeed looked over the Sparx sharpeners. The do appear to have a lot going for them, especially the ease of usage.
Thanks for weighing in with your thoughts.
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Leif, I thought of a question about the Sparx sharpener.
Sparx apparently have a self-centering clamp that allows for sharpening blades of different thickness. Is there an adjustment for this on the machine? Is the feature trouble-free?
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The Sparx user manual is online: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0932/7770/files/11058D_Users_Manual_Text_bleed.pdf?16234843337139765932
I’ve owned a Sparx for 7 months and its brilliant. $1000 including figure skate adapter, but it doesn’t work with all figure skate blades. I have hockey skates, and do one pass before skating, four passes is a full sharpen. You need to buy a grinding wheel for each hollow.
Have you measured how much metal it takes off in one pass, with the grinding ring height set to 1 to take off the least metal? (E.g., find a reference point on which you can repeatedly position a micrometer or high precision calipers, and measure the before/after distance to the bottom of the blade...)
I didn't realize it had a figure blade holder. Potentially, that sounds like a very big plus for the people on this forum.
https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/faq says
We offer a figure skate adapter for $99. With the figure skate adapter in place, Sparx can sharpen most traditional, flat-sided blades. Sparx is not compatible with the multiple-piece blades often used in competitive skating.
https://www.sparxhockey.com/collections/accessories/products/sparx-figure-skate-adapter, including the very informative video there, provides additional info, and provides a contact point.
But the video left me with some obvious questions, which I just sent to Sparx:
I watched the video at https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/installing-the-figure-skate-adapters
1. Do I understand correctly that you are expecting the Sparx sharpener to remove 1-2 mm of steel during the sharpening process?
2. The blade in the video has been slightly rounded off at the tail - i.e., the rocker radius is less there. Does the Sparx sharpener tend to do that on figure blades?
3. You say it doesn't work on multi-piece blades, I assume you specifically mean Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades? Have you tested it on MK and Wilson "Revolution" blades?
4. Am I correct that each sharpening will introduce a slight forwards to backwards tilt, shifting the skater's balance slightly backwards?
I'm pretty happy myself with using hand tools - at this point it only takes me a few minutes, though there is a learning curve and initially I made mistakes. But I bet the Sparx could do an ROH change pretty fast, without wearing out an expensive hand tool.
I'm guessing the Sparx isn't fancy enough to let you create or restore a custom rocker profile. I could be wrong, and have often been wrong before. If I'm right, Bill, since you love to play with tools, it might not do everything you would like to be able to do. Maybe if you are going to invest in a power tool, you should go all the way to something that gives you more control?
If my guesses are right about the Sparx tool, based on the video, you COULD choose to remove less metal than the 1-2 mm they appear to imply should be removed on their video with each sharpening - once the tail has been rounded off what might be their way.
Even 1 mm is more than an order of magnitude more metal than the .003 inch (.0762 mm) (two different expert pro sharpeners have told me they try to remove. At that rate, a figure blade would have a substantially different shape, and be judged almost unusable by many picky figure skaters, after 3 or 4 sharpenings - rather expensive given the high cost of the best figure skating blades.
And just to be clear - many figure skaters don't want the tail to be rounded off at all.
I do like that it appears that the Sparx lets you sharpen almost right up to the toe pick.
My guess that the figure skate sharpening process Sparx endorses in the video does introduce a slight forwards/backwards tilt - because you adjust the tail mount to sharpen the tail, but keep the toe piece mount height the same, so as to miss the back pick, is a potential problem with any skate sharpening device. Some pro sharpeners do that too, on any machine. But most of the most expert pro sharpeners do eventually trim the back toe pick a little. I suppose you might be able to do that with the Sparx too, by adjusting the height of the toe pick mount.
(Because of the shape of the toe pick, it isn't really possible to maintain the same relationship between the the toe pick and the rest of the blade without trimming it or adjusting the tilt, as you gradually remove metal during skating and successive sharpenings. That's probably the biggest reason most figure skaters consider an old, many-times sharpened blade to no longer be adequate.)
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I agree that 1 mm is a massive amount to remove. It makes me wonder if a leading decimal point was omitted from the cited figure.
It takes real work to remove that much steel during one sharpening. It can be done, but I suspect that something is amiss with the specs.
BTW, their statement that it works with only flat-sided blades appears to exclude side-hone or tapered blades. It must be a limitation of the clamping mechanism.
That fact would make it undesirable to most higher-level figure skaters who tend to use non-flat blades or multi-part blades.
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I agree that 1 mm is a massive amount to remove. It makes me wonder if a leading decimal point was omitted from the cited figure.
In the video, 1 or 2 mm looks about the amount they mean. But it isn't perfectly clear if the machine actually takes off that much, or whether the figure skating clamps merely physically constrain it not to take more.
Also, in the video the machine takes many passes to sharpen the figure skate. Perhaps it can be set to use fewer, and take off less metal.
If Sparx responds to me, I will post their response. Perhaps it will be enlightening. But I may have asked too many questions, or sounded too picky to be a good customer.
BTW, their statement that it works with only flat-sided blades appears to exclude side-hone or tapered blades. It must be a limitation of the clamping mechanism. That fact would make it undesirable to most higher-level figure skaters who tend to use non-flat blades or multi-part blades.
According to the elite skate techs I've spoken to, not all elite level figure skaters use non-parallel sided blades (one common definition of "side honed"), and not all feel it matters.
I personally guess that by multi-part blades Sparx specifically means Paramount and Ultima Matrix blades, because the part the clamp might lock onto isn't very flat at all, but comprises two flat surfaces, as well as an upraised curved surface: Sparx's example of a blade that won't work is here (https://jacksonultima.com/collections/blades/products/matrix-nova).
If the clamps really do a good job of being self centering, I'm not sure if an ordinary degree of side honing would matter much, because side honing on figure blades is generally only a few thousandths of an inch, and often less, and is quite gradual, and might be insignificant over the size of the clamps they show in the video, though it is possible that dovetail cut blades might not be flat enough for those clamps. I have no idea whether the Sparx sharpener is consistent enough to maintain the desired shape for dovetail cut blades, because altering the rocker profile on such blades also make the blade width and edge angle vary in complicated ways along the blade. Also, if any skater actually benefits significantly from other forms of side honing I assume you need extremely precise and consistent sharpening to meet their exacting requirements. I have no idea whether the Sparx is that good. Perhaps it is.
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Using my Blademaster, I make nice slow and even sweeping motions along the wheel. I would guess I remove way less than 1mm when doing a sharpening of the same ROH. I keep a book with notes on all the skaters and blades and their preferences on sharpening to make sure I am not removing more metal and also not to change the rocker diameter. My daughters blades after 3 years are starting to show a "flat" spot towards the pick, but we just picked up new Elara's w/Aurora blades for her. I probably sharpened hers about every 2-3 months over 3 years. You do not want to round off the end of the blade at all.
The main thing is to take your time and use nice even light pressure strokes in a sweeping manner. I was lucky to spend some time with a respected skate shop owner that shared his wisdom with me prior my jump into sharpening.
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Three years of power sharpenings done that frequently is good blade life. You must have "the touch".
Thanks for the additional information. If I get one of the sharpening machines, I'll seek out someone experienced. It sounds like the fastest way to learn.
BTW, when the Aurora blades arrive, please come back to share your opinion of sharpening stainless steel blades. One tech I spoke to had a strong opinion about it.
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If my guesses are right about the Sparx tool, based on the video, you COULD choose to remove less metal than the 1-2 mm they appear to imply should be removed on their video with each sharpening - once the tail has been rounded off what might be their way.
I watched the video. It never suggests removing 1 - 2 mm (which is a lot!). It recommends initially setting the rear adapter such that 1 - 2 mm of the blade is exposed (i.e., protruding below the rear adapter). The final positioning of the rear adapter is later fine tuned such that the sharpening portion of the wheel touches the tail of the blade. It never says to keep sharpening away until the sharpening portion of the wheel hits the adapter.
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That would explain things. Thanks.
I'm glad you took the time to watch the video. I seldom have patience for videos.
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I seldom have patience for videos.
Videos of Peggy Fleming are an exception though, correct? ;)
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Good memory!
Yes, an exception. MotoGP motorcycle road racing is another weakness.
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After I sent a message to Sparx,
I watched the video at https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/installing-the-figure-skate-adapters
1. Do I understand correctly that you are expecting the Sparx sharpener to remove 1-2 mm of steel during the sharpening process?
2. The blade in the video has been slightly rounded off at the tail - i.e., the rocker radius is less there. Does the Sparx sharpener tend to do that on figure blades?
3. You say it doesn't work on multi-piece blades, I assume you specifically mean Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades? Have you tested it on MK and Wilson "Revolution" blades?
4. Am I correct that each sharpening will introduce a slight forwards to backwards tilt, shifting the skater's balance slightly backwards?
they responded
Hello,
Thank you for your interest in Sparx! Each cycle (down and back) removes .0005" of steel. This is much less than even 1 mm of steel.
Due to its consistent pressure on the full length of the steel, the Sparx sharpener will not change the rocker radius during the life of the steel. It will follow whichever profile is currently on the steel.
The Sparx sharpener is not compatible with any multi-piece steel including MK and Wilson Revolution. The skate clamp needs to be able to clamp securely to the steel and the blade holder on this type of steel is not compatible with the skate clamp on the sharpener.
Because the sharpener follows the existing profile, the steel will not change the tilt of the steel.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
Kind regards,
Lisa
Lisa Humphreys
Customer Service Representative
Sparx Hockey
Increments of .0005" removal is quite acceptable, by powered-machine-sharpening standards, given that two different expert skate techs (Mike C and Don Giese) told me they usually try to remove about .003" during a figure skate sharpening.
I still think an ideal sharpening machine WOULD be able to alter the rocker profile, because that is sometimes desired. But for the most part, maintaining the current rocker profile is an excellent starting point, and is what one wants to do most of the time. Perhaps you could work out a way to modify the profile, or at least accentuate the sweet spot, with some type of jig that you put inside?
Have you looked at the relative price points for a Sparx machine vs a minimal but adequate used Wissota, BladeMaster, Blackstone or Skateology brand powered sharpener? (Any any other good brands that exist?) Maybe the Sparx is more portable than the others, if that is an issue. E.g., if you wanted to set up your own traveling mini-shop in retirement, or keep it with you in your car.
I suspect there are a number of on-line comparisons available of the various machines, but haven't looked. If you know any good skate techs who have used several well enough, maybe you could ask them for advice?
I love the idea of a self-centering holder, like Sparx has.
It would be nice if someone on this board could review how well they work with figure skate blades. Do you suppose they would lend you one for review on this board?
As I think I mentioned, the only powered machine I have used (but do not own) was a small old used Blademaster. It was heavy, sturdy, and fairly intuitive to use, but it had a blade holder which did NOT do automatic centering, and which was very hard to adjust correctly - you loosened the bolts, moved the blade, re-tightened the bolts, and tried again. However, Blademaster also sells blade holders than can be adjusted more easily and consistently. If I were looking for a powered sharpener, I would view how easy it is to adjust the current blade holder as one of the most important evaluation criteria. Blademaster also has a lot of on-line videos available, from themselves, and from others, partly because they are so common.
Since some of the used models have been around for quite a while, I would also want to check the availability and price of supplies and replacement parts for any used machine I bought. But I guess that is second nature to an engineer like yourself.
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Increments of .0005" removal ...
That's more like it.
It is looking to be a promising machine. There are a lot of moving parts for the money, compared to the standard sharpeners.
I just saw a really old Wissota on eBay for $210, plus $103 shipping from Connecticut. The skate holder was modified by a previous owner. It's bad looking enough that I'd have to see it in person to have an opinion about its worth.
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I didn't realize machine quality goes up with the number of moving parts. I thought it was often the other way around.
Why are you giving up on hand held sharpeners? If you want a way to make major shape changes quickly, buy a coarse grain abrasive cylinder and put it in your Pro-Filer. Then touch it up with the normal stones. Not as fast as a power tool, but if it is just for yourself, you don't need to sharpen super-fast.
If you want to take a risk on a really cheap powered skate sharpener, you could import one from China. :)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957296730.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.8782501fWZTLEs&algo_pvid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7&algo_expid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7-3&btsid=bfe06001-0e12-42ed-90eb-cb900282376c&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3,searchweb201603_60
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32970079189.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.8782501fWZTLEs&algo_pvid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7&algo_expid=7249b89b-422e-409b-beff-8357ac2079d7-4&btsid=bfe06001-0e12-42ed-90eb-cb900282376c&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_3,searchweb201603_60
BTW, I have no idea how well they work, or if they even let you grind a hollow. Maybe you have to speak Chinese to ask questions!
Cheers.
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I still think an ideal sharpening machine WOULD be able to alter the rocker profile, because that is sometimes desired.
Ideally, yes. But the SPARX is geared for home users, at a price point on the order of $1000 or less. The top-of-the-line ProSharp AS 2001 (https://prosharp.us/products/as-2001-allpro) can profile blades ... at a price point on the order of $11,000 (base). And that's via stock templates (extra) for hockey blades. I don't know whether the unit can profile figure skate blades; but, even if it can, you would need custom templates (likely a lot extra).
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I didn't realize machine quality goes up with the number of moving parts. I thought it was often the other way around.
Why are you giving up on hand held sharpeners?
Oh, I'm not giving up on hand sharpeners! I see real advantages to them even if I had a power sharpener in the shop. Hand sharpeners allow blades to last longer.
It's the other things, like a custom ROH, changing between ROH values, or a subtle reshaping of a blade that a power sharpener can do best.
The number of moving parts generally lowers machine tolerances and reliability, but there are exceptions. For example, my 2017 Toyota, in spite of it's complexity, is worlds better in quality and reliability than my much simpler 1964 Ford.
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It's the other things, like a custom ROH, changing between ROH values, or a subtle reshaping of a blade that a power sharpener can do best.
AFAICT, the only one of those three things that Sparx can do is change between ROH values. So, though you say you don't like looking at videos, you might want to look at Sparx's videos and other docs, before purchase.
They only sell fixed grinding ring sizes, not custom sizes, though it is a wider variety of sizes than Pro-Filer covers:
https://www.sparxhockey.com/collections/grinding-rings/products/1-2-radius-ring
If you just want to TRY one or two ROH sizes (e.g., 7/16"?), it would be cheaper to pay a pro shop for a trial sharpening.
Sparx provides no obvious way to reshape the rocker profile.
AFAICT, it provides no way to create side honing, though I'm not sure any commercial skate sharpening machine can.
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Three years of power sharpenings done that frequently is good blade life. You must have "the touch".
Thanks for the additional information. If I get one of the sharpening machines, I'll seek out someone experienced. It sounds like the fastest way to learn.
BTW, when the Aurora blades arrive, please come back to share your opinion of sharpening stainless steel blades. One tech I spoke to had a strong opinion about it.
This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well. I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades. They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.
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This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well. I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades. They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.
That's strange. My experience with the Aurora vs Coronation Ace was the exact opposite: the edges on the Aurora lasted much longer. One of the biggest selling points of stainless steel vs plain carbon steel (besides no rust) is the extended edge life; otherwise, blade manufacturers wouldn't use it, since stainless steel is more expensive and more difficult to work than plain carbon steel. Depending on the specific grades, thermal treatment, and mechanical treatment, both stainless steel and plain carbon steel can be hardened to the same values (in the range serviceable for blade use), but stainless steel can have a higher toughness value. There are other parameters that affect edge life, but hardness and toughness are the principal ones.
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It looks like there are various viewpoints about sharpening stainless steel. My former fitter didn't like to sharpen stainless blades. He didn't elaborate why.
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It looks like there are various viewpoints about sharpening stainless steel. My former fitter didn't like to sharpen stainless blades. He didn't elaborate why.
I know you like a lot of the stuff offerred by PBHE. This is their opinion of stainless-steel blades (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/glossary/; see entry under "stainless steel blades"):
"Stainless steel blades have a chromium content that causes the steel to curl preventing a clean sharp edge. Due to this PBHE does not currently sharpen these blades. Stainless has the advantage of being rust resistant but at a cost of reduced edge control. Stainless 440 C and AUS 8 has other specific grinding problems that have yet to be solved by grinding specialists."
I strongly disagree with them. Various manufacturers and sharpeners (knife blades as well as skate blades) have solved the problems.
Just spoke to a skate tech about this recently. At some point, he had written HD Sports (Wilson/MK) asking them why they haven't switched to stainless steel (which he prefers). All he got back was a long letter extolling the virtues of plain carbon steel.
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This is the second pair of Aurora's that my daughter has skated in, and a few other local girls are on them as well. I have no issue with sharpening them as I take very light sweeps with all blades. They do however seem to lose their edge a little easier than the carbon steel, but that is expected as stainless is a little "softer" than carbon.
Curious what your daughter wore before the Aurora. And if you found that the edges don't last as long, why did you buy a second pair?
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Curious what your daughter wore before the Aurora. And if you found that the edges don't last as long, why did you buy a second pair?
She wore the Volant. It was her coaches suggestion for the blade was why. she skates multiple disciplines and these fits most. Once she passes here last 3 gold dances weh will move to a blade with an 8' rocker. She suggested Aurora or the Coronation Ace, and as long as we were at Riedell, we went with the Aurora again. Like I mentioned, they are not bad for me to sharpen and I actually prefer sharpening these over others. The edge lasts just fine for her.
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At some point, he had written HD Sports (Wilson/MK) asking them why they haven't switched to stainless steel (which he prefers). All he got back was a long letter extolling the virtues of plain carbon steel.
You don't happen to know what those virtues are?
E.g., Is it possible that "silver soldering", and other forms of welding, work better or are easier on non-stainless steels?
Or is it possible that it is easier or or more reliable to nickel and chrome plate non-stainless steels than stainless steels, or that the engraving looks better?
Is it possible that the metallurgists at MK and Wilson are simply more familiar with the non-stainless steels, and know more about tempering and hardening them.
I admit I love (high carbon) stainless steel blades. My plain high carbon blades needed sharpening more often, in my personal use. And they needed more care. I rarely bother to oil or grease my stainless blades. As best I understand it, high end figure skating blades of both types are sharpened to about the same "hardness" (i.e., resistance to deformation) - i.e., the main blade is tempered to a Rockwell C hardness of about 30 or 40, and the edge is re-hardened to about 60, according to some sources. My impression is that the latter that is fairly close to the limits of how hard those stainless alloys can be hardened, whereas conventional high carbon steels can be made much harder.
But a lot of people in the high end knife community prefer plain high carbon steel. There must be some advantages that I am unaware of.
The most rust-resistant stainless steels, which are not very "high carbon", like some of the marine grade alloys, cannot be made very hard, and would probably be a bad idea for figure skates, unless you skate on ice with lots of salt or other corrosive components.
(I've also been told that some people in the hockey community prefer softer steel blades. They need to be sharpened much more often, but apparently, being less brittle, they can be made more sharp to begin with. Perhaps they are also more durable under the tough treatment hockey players give them?)
This may be a completely crazy suggestion, but could it be that HD Sports uses plain high carbon steels because they are cheaper? Also, because even the high carbon stainless steels are being hardened close to their limits on high end blades, maybe you have to do the metallurgy much more carefully - which would also affect production cost. The claims that have been made that they have less than ideal quality control, even on their most expensive blades, suggests that they are quite production-cost conscious.
Anyway, this has little to do, AFAIK, with sharpeners. AFAIK, all the major brands of sharpener can deal with both stainless and non-stainless steels.
That said, I spoke to a coach who skated a lot on artificial ice, which rapidly wore down blades. She said that she and others there used inexpensive blades to save on costs. I think that if I wanted to experiment a lot with blade shapes, I would do the same thing. I would start by measuring the shape of the high end blades, and copy that shape to the cheap blades (though copying toe pick shape would be pretty hard). Since the Sparx isn't designed to alter rocker profiles, I would choose one of the other types. I might even choose a machine that was designed to follow a template, such as another blade. Some of them can - I'm not sure which.
You have probably already found these and other training resources:
https://geppettosskateshop.com/skate-tech-training
https://www.amazon.com/John-Harmata/e/B00DRDZ930/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1 (same teacher as the one above; the book is light on technical sharpening details).
http://www.iceskateology.com/Skateology/Skateology_Manual.html
http://www.pro-filer.com/training
http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/content/32-documentation-downloads
http://blademaster.com/web/usa/en/content/33-videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/BlademasterGuspro/videos
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Anyway, this has little to do, AFAIK, with sharpeners. AFAIK, all the major brands of sharpener can deal with both stainless and non-stainless steels.
Are all major commercial sharpening machines that are capable of producing good edges on plain carbon steel blades also capable of producing good edges on stainless steel blades? Yes. Are all machine operators who are capable of producing good edges on plain carbon steel blades also capable of producing good edges on stainless steel blades? No. That's the central point of some previous posts.
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Or is it possible that it is easier or or more reliable to nickel and chrome plate non-stainless steels than stainless steels, or ...
Why would you want to plate nickel and chrome onto stainless steel blades? For plain carbon steel blades, nickel plating is used to provide rust resistance; and nickel plus chrome plating is used to provide rust resistance plus a cosmetic mirror finish. Stainless steel blades are sufficiently rust resistant under normal operating, storage, and transport conditions that they don't need plating [if you strap your skates on your roof rack, and drive along the ocean front ... you'll have more serious problems to deal with than just rust]. If you want a cosmetic mirror finish [or you believe a smoother finish leads to higher performance], you can mirror polish them (that's what Eclipse, SkateScience, and Step do).
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Why would you want to plate nickel and chrome onto stainless steel blades?
You might not.
But I've been told by one source that MK and Wilson place greater quality control emphasis on the finish and engraving than on the factory sharpening. (In particular, that during a visited to the factory, they proudly showed him that they had a discard pile. The discards were due to problems with the finish, not to blade shape.) I'm not sure stainless steel can have quite as bright a finish as a Chrome plated steel.
And indeed, my high carbon MK and Wilson blades were shinier than my stainless steel Ultima Matrix blades, and perhaps the engraving was fancier.
Can you find a link to the posts where you discussed why it is harder to sharpen stainless? I must have missed it.
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Can you find a link to the posts where you discussed why it is harder to sharpen stainless? I must have missed it.
Replies #47 and #48 above in this current thread.
This previous thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8394.0; in particular, Replies #3 and #5.
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Replies #47 and #48 above in this current thread.
This previous thread http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8394.0; in particular, Replies #3 and #5.
But those are what I was replying to...
I thought you meant there were other threads where this matter had been discussed in detail.
So I just went looking for web pages that discuss this. The amount of controversy on which is easier to sharpen and maintain is surprisingly large.
There does seem to be a consensus that perhaps 20 or 30 years ago, stainless steels were not as good as far as wear resistance and carbide (the impurity particles that are embedded in the steel to harden it) grain size, but some people say that the best "high carbon stainless steel alloys" - also called "high carbide stainless steel alloys" are at least as good now, though some people also say that the stainless alloy carbide particles are all very hard, which means that, ASSUMING THAT TO BE TRUE, if the abrasive material used to do the sharpening isn't very hard, it may take a longer to sharpen stainless, and it may wear out the abrasive faster.
Blademaster's catalog
http://blademaster.com/web/img/cms/2018%20BMCatalogue%20Email.pdf
includes various grinding wheels
8VBP - The best edge retention in the industry.
Maintains radius/shape longer than any other wheel,
saving you money. Unsurpassed finish translates to a
superior quality sharpening.
8GC - Exceptional wheel for holding form – requires
fewer dresses between sharpenings. Cool cutting
action.
8AS - High performance aerospace grade grinds cool
and is optimal for edge retention.
O8RUBY - Open structured wheel for quick and cool
cutting action. Ruby abrasive with a high chromium
content.
88R - Uniform grit and closed structure for a superior
finish for recreational figure skates and goalie skates.
8MXRUBY - Premium ruby abrasive with a high
chromium content. Well suited to both carbon and
stainless steel blades. Multi-grit.
8MXR - All-purpose multi-grit nitride grained wheel that
is suitable for a wide variety of skate blades.
I guess that implies that some types of their grinding wheel might be more suitable for stainless steel blades than others - and that some of the other grinding wheels have other advantages, such as needing to be dressed less often, or perhaps being cheaper. Blademaster is, I think, the biggest company in the skate sharpening machine business, and they've been at it for a long while, so it seems like a reasonably authoritative source. (Note, however, that they don't explicitly say that any of their wheels can't sharpen stainless blades. They only say positive things about each product.)
So it IS reasonable to assume some skate techs might choose one of the grinding wheels that doesn't sharpen stainless well, which tends to confirm the claim that some skate techs might be unable to sharpen stainless steel blades well.
I have so little experience with powered sharpening machines that I simply didn't know this. I've used the Pro-Filer tools a lot, and a few other hand tools to some extent - but it never occurred to me to do timing tests to see how long it took to sharpen different blades, or to try to determine how much the sharpening tool itself is worn by the sharpening. It would be a hard test to do objectively, because working by hand involves a lot of variables.
All I can say is that I prefer the good stainless blades for myself. But I also do my own sharpening - perhaps people who don't should ask their own skate techs if they can deal with high carbon stainless steel blades. (It is also true that some skate shops do not own blade holders that could hold the high end Ultima ("Matrix") blades, Paramount blades, or MK or Wilson "Revolution" blades.) And perhaps the original poster will take into account whether the grinding wheel (and blade holder) that comes with the sharpener he plans to buy can handle the blades he chooses to buy - though grinding wheels, if still available for his machine, aren't all that expensive to replace.
I have an early 1980's era Tekna dive knife, that I read somewhere was the best dive knife in its size class made at the time. It is high cabon non-stainless steel, and was supposed to be carefully rinsed, cleaned, dried, and maybe oiled, after every exposure to salt water. But now Tekna dive knives are stainless steel or titanium. That too suggests but does not prove that stainless steels have improved a lot, at least for high corrosion environments like seawater. OTOH, the orginal Tekna company is out of business - their trademark was bought by others (see http://www.tek-tite.com/products.php?cat=TEKNA+Products) - but they are still premium quality dive knives.
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So it IS reasonable to assume some skate techs might choose one of the grinding wheels that doesn't sharpen stainless well, which tends to confirm the claim that some skate techs might be unable to sharpen stainless steel blades well.
<<Emphasis in original.>> As I've written before, even if a tech has the proper equipment (including the proper wheel), he doesn't necessarily know how to sharpen stainless steel blades properly; sharpening stainless steel blades requires different technique from sharpening plain carbon steel blades.
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FWIIW, I just skated at "The Rink" in Ithaca, NY. They have a Sparx (as well as a more professional and controllable sharpener), but don't have the figure blade holder.
The guy I spoke to didn't sound all that expert, but he said that they get about 45 sharpenings/grinding ring (the website says 60 - but apparently they , which cost $59+shipping. He said the rings could sharpen more, but it has an embedded chip which counts passes (he thinks), and it won't let you do more - kind of like an HP print cartridge. He uses it for his own hockey skates, once/week, 4 passes/blade (which, if Sparx is correct, means he removes .002"/week, which he considers a touch-up sharpening), but he said that the picky skaters get their blades done by specific skate techs on more controllable machines. He said that hockey skaters who have a rocker profile that is more curved than usual at the ends (I guess for aggressive turning) have a slight problem with it - the points of first contact isn't as far from the ends as it should be, leading to some roughness there.
It would be really cool if Sparx added a microprocessor-controllable model that let you play with the rocker. It sounds as if they mostly have the right ideas, but profile control would make them even better.
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BTW, the people who worked for that shop told me they would not use the Sparx to change hollow radius. Because each expensive grinding ring is good for such a limited # of passes, and each pass takes off so little steel, that would of course be very expensive.
I wonder if you could convince Sparx to give you a commercial free trial, on the strength of your frequent postings to this forum:
https://www.sparxhockey.com/pages/risk-free-trial
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I ordered a Wissota 911 Deluxe sharpener outfit, and substituted a figure skate holder for the standard holder for a $50 up-charge. I took advantage of the October Sale discount of $100, which essentially pays for shipping.
I also picked up a figure skate 100 grit wheel, edge checkers, sharpening wax, and a toe pick protector.
Wish me luck!
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I ordered a Wissota 911 Deluxe sharpener outfit, and substituted a figure skate holder for the standard holder for a $50 up-charge. I took advantage of the October Sale discount of $100, which essentially pays for shipping.
I also picked up a figure skate 100 grit wheel, edge checkers, sharpening wax, and a toe pick protector.
Wish me luck!
Good luck! Very interested in your future review. I've come close several times to buying this outfit myself, but wasn't sure I'd develop the right touch (or maintain it with infrequent use). I was hoping to try out one of the advanced Pro-Sharp automated units, but that didn't pan out.
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Very cool. Not super-cheap, though it isn't at all high in the powered machine domain, but very cool.
Looks like a serious tool, without the limitations Sparx imposes.
Now you can experiment with your own blade shapes, if that is your pleasure. The problem, as I see it, with buying multiple blade models, is that you can't vary one parameter at a time, nor can you vary shapes gradually enough to easily adapt and figure out what works best. This gives you that ability.
And since you have traced all those profiles, you could start by copying commercial fancy shapes, onto cheap blades.
Though I guess this isn't be the right machine to create or copy your own toe pick shapes, but that wasn't what you seem to be focussing on. Anyway, maybe someone with your machining skills might be able to do that with a bench grinder or Dremel?
I'm curous how long it takes you to get a good consistant edge and blade shape.
Can you build a jig that lets your follow an established profile? Have you started thinking of how to design that? Or will you just freehand it?
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I will begin by using it as merely a shapener. My first goal is to be able to sharpen thin dance blades, which I hope will arrive also this afternoon.
I have done some light daydreaming about how to do some template shaping, but haven't hit on anything easy for now. Once it's here, then the daydreams will more of a basis in reality. If I attempt anything, it will probably be just the main rocker radius. It's really too early to get into that until I've put some hours of practice in.
I won't bother with toe picks unless I have a need. It's not that I'm doing doubles or launching myself 1+ foot in the air anymore. However the toe picks of the dance skates are intentionally blunted, and some time on them will tell if that's a handicap for my style of skating.
I'll start a new thread for the Wissota once it arrives and I get it set up.
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I remembering hearing about a company which does template sharpening - they sponsor Patrick Chan who has a custom grind (uses a Phantom blade but has it ground to the Gold Seal main rocker?) I think the company is this one: http://precisionblade.com/index.php/profiling-blades/. They have an interesting photo of their set up including a template. Looks a bit like the set up used for cutting spare copies of a house key!
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I've seen their web site before, and it's impressive what they can do. Their equipment is far different from what the average shake shop has. Precision Blade Honing Enterprises are among the best I've ever seen.