Skate tongue? Leather options? Let's discuss boots while I ponder order options

[R45]

For many years now, I’m using 2 different boot dryers (as I stay in 2 different places):
1.   With ozone and warm air
2.   With normal air only
My boots always get dried after skating whether thy feel humid or not.
The result of both dryers is the same, the boots never stink.
Before I started using these dryers my boots always became smelly.

[Nate]

I think it depends on what boots you wear, and how they are lined.  Also, your degree of foot perspiration, etc.

Boots with lots of dense padding tend to stink.  If you use a dryer, you may not notice it because the stench may be trapped in the inner layers of the padding - which dry much slower. Boots using increasingly dense padding act as a reservoir for perspiration/dead skin cells, etc.

When a boot feels dry, the inner layers of the padding may not actually be dry at that time.

I never used a heated dryer, as it promotes bacteria and fungal growth, and breakdown of the leather if the uppers are made of that material.  Risport, Jackson, Edea, etc.  They all stunk eventually.  The only mitigating factor was how often I wore the boots and how hard I skated in them - basically, the degree of perspiration and other elements (like dead skin cells, etc.) that I was dumping into the boots.

The only boots that I've ever worn where I could - basically forever, no matter how hard I skated in them - just own and never worry about stench were those that were lined with leather on all inner surfaces (entire boot upper + tongue).  Like SP Teri or Harlick Clarino leather lining.  And I think Riedell has that option and Graf Edmonton/Washingtons come that way standard.  Because the leather doesn't absorb moisture as readily, most of that stuff comes out of the boot when you remove your foot [and sock, if you wear one] from the boot.  It's also easy to remove much of the residual stuff from the boot by simply opening it up after removing it from the foot and wiping the internal surface down with microfibre (takes... 30 seconds or less).  With padded boots, most skating socks/stockings wick moisture outwards and into the padding, instead.

My 12-year-old pair of SP-Teri KT2 boots, which I have worn a TON (I was probably skating 20-25 hours a week), still smell like new boots.  No padded boots I've ever owned (I cannot even count) could ever hold up that well to stench.  The only thing that would develop a stench in those boots, were the SuperFeet insoles, and those get replaced ever few months so I basically used that as a barometer for when it was time to replace them.  The inside of the boot (footbed) is leather with a metal heel, and there are also no "air channels" where things can fester (Risport, Edea).

I literally never experienced boot stench until I got those padded Risport RF2 Supers.  Before, I wore Klingbeil & SP-Teri, so that wasn't an issue.

[tstop4me]

The only boots that I've ever worn where I could - basically forever, no matter how hard I skated in them - just own and never worry about stench were those that were lined with leather on all inner surfaces (entire boot upper + tongue).  Like SP Teri or Harlick Clarino leather lining.  And I think Riedell has that option and Graf Edmonton/Washingtons come that way standard.  Because the leather doesn't absorb moisture as readily, most of that stuff comes out of the boot when you remove your foot [and sock, if you wear one] from the boot.  It's also easy to remove much of the residual stuff from the boot by simply opening it up after removing it from the foot and wiping the internal surface down with microfibre (takes... 30 seconds or less).  With padded boots, most skating socks/stockings wick moisture outwards and into the padding, instead.

<<Emphasis added>>  Clarino leather is not natural leather; it's synthetic:  https://www.kuraray.com/company/history/story/clarino .

[Nate]

Not clicking on that because it's irrelevant...

What matters isn't whether it's "real" or "synthetic" leather, but whether or not the material lining the inside of the boot easily allows perspiration, dead skin cells and other matter to be absorbed easily into the boot padding, which creates an environment where bacteria and fungi can thrive - and also increases the risk of infection if you have any sort of wound that come into contact with the boot (torn blisters, cuts, abrasions, etc.).  The bad smell is simply a symptom of that underlying issue.  Even if you use a dryer, it doesn't stop this from happening.  Any time the boots get damp they will still smell.  They just smell much less when they are dry :-P

Generally, you want this stuff wicked away from the foot/skin, but not INTO the material lining the boot itself, for the above mentioned reasons.

The clarino lining in some boots prevent this, to a fairly large degree, by virtue of that material being far less porous and absorbing than the cloth/mesh lining in other boots.

The denser the padding, the worse it gets, because no "dryer" can circulate air through the dense padding - nor can it remove any of the other matter that has been absorbed, or rubbed into the material.  The inner layers of the padding dry only by exchanging moisture with the more superficial layers that have already been dried, but the dryers don't actually kill any bacteria or fungus - the latter of which often can have spores which exist in a dormant state until optimal temperature/moisture thresholds are reached.  Washing that material out isn't really viable due to how the dense padding retains moisture, and how this can affect the long term viability of the boot itself (due to moisture retention).  With Clarino lining, you can literally wipe down the inner surfaces with a mild mixture of water and soap (then air dry them) to keep all of this under check with ease.  It basically took 20 seconds per boot after getting home from the rink.

[tstop4me]

What matters isn't whether it's "real" or "synthetic" leather, but whether or not the material lining the inside of the boot easily allows perspiration, dead skin cells and other matter to be absorbed easily into the boot padding, which creates an environment where bacteria and fungi can thrive - and also increases the risk of infection if you have any sort of wound that come into contact with the boot (torn blisters, cuts, abrasions, etc.).  The bad smell is simply a symptom of that underlying issue.  Even if you use a dryer, it doesn't stop this from happening.  Any time the boots get damp they will still smell.  They just smell much less when they are dry :-P

We are in agreement here.  It's just that when I read your above post (Reply #126), it seemed to imply that only real leather linings have these properties.  I just wanted to point out that that's not so, as in fact corroborated by your experience with Clarino leather, which, despite its name, is not real leather. 

[Query]

So if you had a completely impermeable, but washable layer next to the skin, it could prevent the problem.

Some hockey boots are actually washable. I wonder what materials they are made of.

I'm not sure how comfortable a boot made like that could be.

I suppose the alternative is to make the boots like normal washable clothing - completely permeable, so you can again wash them.

I'm not sure if you could design a boot like that, that provided adequate support.

I wonder if anyone has experimented with these things in figure skating boots.

I had previously concluded that if I bought new boots, I would like them to be padded with some sort of synthetic pile lining, because I like the way that feels. (My current boots have normal leather next to my [polypro] liner socks.) (I love pile jackets.) But now you have made me think that might not be a good idea. Many synthetic piles are washable, but the layers they were attached to, as well as the exterior of the boot, would have to be too. So would the insole - and you'd have to remove it so no fungus or bacteria would live underneath it. (I notice some hockey sites suggest doing that anyway, as a means of reducing stink.)

To what extent do wicking socks help? Are they enough, or do they only help a little?

I guess these issues exist with all non-washable shoes.

[Nate]

Hockey Skates may have an advantage due to the materials they are constructed out of.  I have never worn or owned any, so I'm just guessing there.


I think the inner material is the problem with figure skates.  Making them comfortable without making them feel like you're skating with plastic around your feet.  Multiiple brands have already moved to synthetic uppers and solves in some models, though.

[tstop4me]

Another way to deal with the odor issue is to treat the materials with antimicrobial compounds.  Topical sprays don't last long, but some materials have antimicrobial compounds embedded into the materials during the manufacture of the materials.

Jackson has this listing for my current pair of boots (https://jacksonultima.com/collections/boots/products/elite-5362):

"High performance microfiber lining with memory foam is moisture wicking and treated with anti-bacterial properties to keep feet warm and comfortable,providing initial try-on comfort."

No further details on their anti-bacterial treatment.

There are many variables at play, of course.  But I wore my previous pair of Jackson Elites (lined with memory foam and microfiber) for ~7 yrs without odor problems.  Of course, I could just be inured to my own stench.  But I've also repaired boots for four other skaters that I'm friends with (including an ice dancer who skated without socks for ~ 5 yrs in the same pair of boots).  They all wore Jacksons, and I didn't notice any odious stench from any of them.

These are small numbers, of course.  It'll be interesting to hear from the forum members who routinely service skates for a variety of customers.


ETA:  I've spun off a separate thread, since it's getting way off track for this present thread.

[AlbaNY]

For many years now, I’m using 2 different boot dryers (as I stay in 2 different places):
1.   With ozone and warm air
2.   With normal air only
My boots always get dried after skating whether thy feel humid or not.
The result of both dryers is the same, the boots never stink.
Before I started using these dryers my boots always became smelly.

Okay, I need a link please?     Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.

[tstop4me]

Okay, I need a link please?     Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.

Just be aware that ozone attacks and degrades some materials (further exacerbated by UV light in some units).  There are a lot of variables:  specific material, concentration of ozone, exposure time, temperature, .... With your old boots, maybe worth trying.  But I'd be reticent to experiment on a spanking new pair of custom Harlicks.

Also, make sure the room is well ventilated.  Ozone is not something you want to inhale.

[R45]

Okay, I need a link please?     Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.

I bought the Shoefresh in Europe:
https://www.shoefresh.eu/en/service/werking/
As mentioned before, use it in a well ventilated room.

[Kaitsu]

Okay, I need a link please?     Ozone especially would be helpful, I think.

Ebay.de
Search ozongenerator

I have tried Ozongenerator, freezing to -20C over night and different odors. None of them didn't remove the bad smell. It comes back when they have been in foot and you have sweated. What I have tested, regularly renewed Smellwell inserts has been so far the best solution to hide the smell. https://smellwell.com

[Query]

My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.

[AlbaNY]

My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.

 

[Nate]

My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.

Haha.  Kind of ingenious.  They know most people will err on the side of kindness and just not mention it if they smell you, so as long as you don't smell yourself you will think it's working well.

[tstop4me]

My brother once looked up the the ingredients of a particular deodorant, and found that one of the chemicals suppressed the human sense of smell. That's another approach. Of course, it would probably only affect one's own sense of smell, and it wouldn't get rid of the potentially harmful bacteria.

Actually, the more interesting question is whether the chemical would as well numb the sense of smell in people near the person wearing the deodorant.  That wouldn't be too far fetched since some deodorants have fragrances to mask the stink, and some fragrances are readily sniffed out by people near the wearer.

[Query]

Actually, the more interesting question is whether the chemical would as well numb the sense of smell in people near the person wearing the deodorant.  That wouldn't be too far fetched since some deodorants have fragrances to mask the stink, and some fragrances are readily sniffed out by people near the wearer.

Of course, it is also possible that it requires a long time exposure to suppress the sense of smell.

I don't know which deodorant or which chemical he looked up, so I can't look that up.

There is a distinction between deodorants, which try to mask the stink by adding a strong fragrance, and antiperspirants, which suppress the sweat. Some products do both. I understand there are people who apply antiperspirants and perhaps deodorants to their feet. I don't know if there are medical consequences. (I remember reading that some people have bad reactions to some antiperspirant ingredients.)

And there are even medications which try to suppress body odor. I'm not sure who prescribes them, or could answer the question about medical consequences - maybe a dermatologist???

[Nate]

All the boots and blades are in, so I get to see what works next weekend.

[Nate]

Graf Edmonton Customs:  Amazing.  Wish people around here actually sold them, cause I probably would have moved over to them and stuck with them 5-7 years ago.  I had asked about them, but it is generally too inconvenient to travel and get fitted for them. This situation is sort of a blessing in that it got so ridiculous that I said screw it and just dealt with it.  Now that they have all of my measurements and know what options I ordered, it will be easy moving forwards since I can just tell them who I am and they will build another pair of the same boots and can ship directly to me.


Jackson Supreme:  I'm about 98.6% sure that - regardless of which sizes were stamped in the previous pair of Jackson boots - they were at least a half size too long on both boots.  I actually had to go down from a 10" to a 9.75" blade, cause the same blades were hanging off the back of the second pair of boots (but had a little under quarter inch slack on the previous pair) - even the left boot, which is literally [supposed to be] the same size as the previous boot (only the right boot is a different size, though the second pair if an entirely new pair).  Even the top of the boot fits better.  I could stick 3-4 fingers down the top of the previous pair, even when I couldn't tie them any tighter.


One of the fitters that I spoke to about the first pair did say the boots were "too big," but it's so hard to accept that when the boots themselves are gaslighting you so hard due to being stamped with the correct size.  I'm chalking it down to some serious manufacturing consistency/quality control issues.  Luckily, I won't have to order another pair of their boots in the future.


I almost wanted to reject them out of principle, but I prefer to have a backup pair.  All of the Risports that I were using as backups are dead, and I while I still have my SP-Teri's, they feel like they're 20lbs per boot.  The Jacksons aren't as good as the Grafs, but they are usable now.  At least now I won't be pissed when the airport decides to lose my luggage again, when leisure traveling.

[supersharp]

So glad to hear you like the Grafs!  It's such a relief when you find boots that are right for your feet.

Very interesting about the Jackson sizes.  Jackson has a chart that lists what blade length is expected for each boot size--it would be interesting to compare the old and new Jacksons with the chart.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart

[Query]

Having had a bad experience myself with a Graf Edmonston Special boot whose heel came apart, and having corresponded with someone who had a similar problem with one of his Edmonton special boots, it is really, really important that you use as long a screw as you can (without penetrating into the insole area) to mount the blade. Did they come with Graf mounting screws? If so, maybe they are properly designed and sized for the boot.

Then again, I had an older pair, whose heel was made from glued-together leather layers underneath a wood base. I think they make them differently now, so it might no longer be a problem.

[Nate]

Having had a bad experience myself with a Graf Edmonston Special boot whose heel came apart, and having corresponded with someone who had a similar problem with one of his Edmonton special boots, it is really, really important that you use as long a screw as you can (without penetrating into the insole area) to mount the blade. Did they come with Graf mounting screws? If so, maybe they are properly designed and sized for the boot.

Then again, I had an older pair, whose heel was made from glued-together leather layers underneath a wood base. I think they make them differently now, so it might no longer be a problem.

They came with a full set of Graf Screws and he gave me an extra backup set.  I'm not sure if they are different.  I didn't get the composite/lightweight/thin sole, so I don't think they need special screws.

The heel has screws going through it to keep everything together like Jackson/Risport/SP-Teri boots do.  The construction plan seem pretty standard compared to everything else I can compare to here.

[Nate]

So glad to hear you like the Grafs!  It's such a relief when you find boots that are right for your feet.

Very interesting about the Jackson sizes.  Jackson has a chart that lists what blade length is expected for each boot size--it would be interesting to compare the old and new Jacksons with the chart.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-boot-size-chart

I honestly think it was just a production issue.

[AlbaNY]

I have an update! 

We booked a trip back home, and I had my mother call Harlick.  They see no problem getting the boots sent to the fitter at least a week before I fly in.  I’m making an appointment for the heat moulding and now just need to decide the best way to have the new blades there and ready for mounting.  (I left them at home but will fly in to the city and be there the first couple of days.  I’ll have my mother mail them to the shop or my sister in law.)

So exciting!
Well, not the part of breaking in super stiff new boots if I have a lesson or two with Coach Cheerful, but hopefully I can manage something.  I think I am leaving my current pair here due to the need for space and heft bringing a lot of missed items to Germany.    I’d planned to have those sharpened by Too Sharp and as a backup for lessons, but that is a lot of luggage space/weight.

[tstop4me]

I think I am leaving my current pair here due to the need for space and heft bringing a lot of missed items to Germany.    I’d planned to have those sharpened by Too Sharp and as a backup for lessons, but that is a lot of luggage space/weight.

Since you're handy with tools, you could demount the blades and bring just the blades with you for sharpening.