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On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: icedancer on August 30, 2014, 05:03:52 PM

Title: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 30, 2014, 05:03:52 PM
Help!!

We have recently found out that our mall rink in Portland, OR is undergoing a remodel (along with the rest of the mall) that will include shrinking our 175' x 75' rink to a smaller, oval shape - the company that bought that mall is not interested in the skating community and wants to have a place where shoppers can .... I'm not sure what they want but although our rink is already small, we have a thriving LTS and figure skating program and most of the skaters in our area have some involvement with this rink.

There is a group that is actively trying to get the new management of the mall to reconsider their plans (the renovations are slated to begin January 2015.

We have had some local television news coverage and there is a petition circulating and a Facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/SaveOurSkaters

I'm wondering if anyone on this board has any experience with this sort of thing and has any ideas to contribute?  I don't know if anything will come of this but I am feeling quite passionate about it - this rink is central to the city (and actually the only skating rink in Portland itself - the other 3 rinks are in the suburbs), closest to my home and has been my "home" rink for about 5 years now - we have had a dance session there for over 20 years - that is dwindling now unfortunately, but will be completely impossible to do dance on this new smaller, oval rink.  We will no doubt not be able to have tests or competitions, do Moves or dance and I am guessing very limited freestyle beyond basic skills.

Anyway, if you are so inclined please "like" our FB page and if you have any ideas of suggestions I would be happy to hear about your experiences.

Thank you skatingforums!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: AgnesNitt on August 30, 2014, 07:15:08 PM
This is how I've been told mall management works.

1. They rent you the space.
2. Then they take a cut of your gross on top of the rent.

It's sort of a protection racket.

Rinks were put into malls to attract people to the mall, who would then (in theory) stay to eat and shop.

The problem is, serious skaters don't necessarily stay to shop and eat, so 'screw you'.

It's to mall management's advantage to get rid of the serious skaters and just keep the ice tourists.

However, if you can prove that the serious skaters attract the ice tourists, then you might have a chance. If the serious skaters aren't in the middle doing spins and low level jumps, then the ice tourists won't be interested in pulling themselves around the rink in a circle (oval).

The other option is to show how much money the serious skaters bring in through LTS increasing the number of people on the ice skating.

Just remember the mall is interested in people shopping, increasing the gross so the mall can rake off more from the top. You've somehow got to make the rink a destination, that attracts *shoppers* not skaters. Maybe suggesting a program where the rink can print out ads for various shops in the mall on receipts, or shops with winter sports sales can advertise to the skaters who would be interested.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 30, 2014, 07:28:26 PM
YES!!

We have been making all of these points as you have described:

1) The skaters and their families do shop at the mall and use it as a community center of sorts.  I am sure I would not go there or know anything about this mall except that I go there often because of the rink.  There is more than just shopping - there is a cobbler, a tailor, the food court, book store, etc., etc. - the families that hang out there I am sure buy lots of things at the mall.

2) The LTS is huge because of the kids that see the other kids and adults who can skate and they beg their parents for lessons.  It is sometimes a hassle but we often spend time talking with people at the boards when they ask about lessons, ask if I am a coach - we help people with their skates and encourage them to look into LTS.  If there are no skaters there I doubt that as many people would be attracted to the skating.

These are the points we are trying to make generally.  Of course if there are fewer lessons there will be fewer people employed by the rink (the coaches - who are basically independent contractors who I believe pay a monthly fee to be able to teach private lessons) - anyway, yes, maybe doing something to help the mall in general would be good - I guess that would be for management to embark on - something they are not doing at this point.... no one is getting involved.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on August 30, 2014, 08:47:30 PM
This is probably a crazy idea, but could you hire a few really good skaters to give a few shows, which you advertise well in advance?

Also, how is the LTS program advertised? Make the signs and fences more prominent and eye-catching. How about a few mirrors suspended above that make the skaters visible from afar? (Drop that idea if anyone plays hockey, due to flying pucks.) (A video camera or two and a video projector and screen might be cheaper.) Do you have music?

What you haven't told us is how busy the rink is. From what I've been able to find out, most U.S. rinks operate on the borderline of economic self-sufficiency, and are subsidized by a government. Is that a possibility? Some municipalities and private charities like there to be recreational activities to keep kids off the streets, and might give grants. But you might need to do a bit of politicking, and going door to door with petitions to convince politicians of the need for subsidy. At most of the rinks around here, there is a lot of politicking to keep outside money coming in.

Also, could you get schools interested in bringing kids for field trips or regular programs? One rink run by a charity I skate at does a lot of those.

Realistically, it might involve a big investment in time for you and other coaches, and other skaters, to keep this going. It might involve offering the rink a bigger cut of LTS monies, if they don't run it.

And it's worth talking to mall management, to try to see if there is something specific that concerns them, like liability. You may be able to help them find insurance solutions.

But I bet this is an uphill battle, with no easy choices.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: twinskaters on August 30, 2014, 08:50:58 PM
Isn't that the rink where Tonya Harding trained?

I don't have any great ideas but think you're on the right track with your thinking. And I really hope you don't lose your ice! :(
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 30, 2014, 09:01:09 PM
Isn't that the rink where Tonya Harding trained?

I don't have any great ideas but think you're on the right track with your thinking. And I really hope you don't lose your ice! :(

Thank you! 

Yes this is where she got her start along with many many other figure skaters in our area.  We have had skaters go to Nationals over the years but she is of course the most notorious.

I don't know how they do in terms of numbers but it appears to be very popular and most likely the most populated of all of the rinks in our area (4 total) because of the visibility in the mall.  The LTS program is pretty big and runs classes - multiple classes at least 5 days a week.  They have a great deal in that if you take a LTS class you get all of your public ice for free.  This keeps good skaters on the ice during the publics, including many many adults.  Of courose, figure skating is not that popular in the Pacific NW as it is on the east coast, Detroit (and Michigan in general), California, etc., but we do have a skating presence and are fighting to keep a large part of it.

Some of your ideas, Query, are good ones, but some would require rink management getting involved and at this point that is not happening and most likely will not happen (since the new mall owners, an investment group from Texas, are basically their boss, or their boss's boss or something like that.

I can see from mall ownership/management point of view early morning freestyles (which actually have been cut way back lately) are probably not cost-effective since no one can shop at the mall when it is not open - I think most of the businesses open around 10am - save for Starbucks and maybe Barnes and Noble - so there are not many shopping opportunities for skating parents coming to early-morning freestyles, so I can see why they might not be interested in anything but a recreational skating rink...

But this rink has been operating as a training center since it's inception in 1960 so of course we have the tradition of skating in the area dating way back...

Thank you for the ideas and suggestions!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: fsk8r on August 31, 2014, 03:25:53 AM
It's Thanksgiving and Christmas soon, does the rink put on any sort of show? I skated at a mall rink in Houston and the Christmas tree lighting show was a big deal. People came in to watch the show (they'd get in a big name skater and let the local kids put on a few routines as well), which was free to watch, and then would hang around to eat and shop. The show was a big draw and used to kick off the Christmas shopping season. The mall could even make themselves look good by passing around a few buckets for donations to fund raise for a local charity (good publicity for them).

They will also discover that skaters' parents (and adult skaters) actually do spend a lot of money in malls when they're there. When my rink was shut for maintenance (not a mall rink but still) the coffee shop in the facility (big sports complex with bowling and swimming to draw the public in) discovered their takings were down significantly. The swimmers don't stop for coffee as much as the skaters do. Swimming parents are generally there only for the 30min swimming lesson and then go, skaters are in multiple times a week for hours at a time and that's low level LTS. Before the rink was shut for maintenance they used to complain about us because we all had a loyalty discount card which they claimed we would abuse (by drinks for friends), but after the maintenance they loved us because they realised we did all have the loyalty card and in having it we would stop and spend (more) money.

Good luck, if there's an internet petition post is here so we can all sign. Never want to see a rink closed anywhere in the world.

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on August 31, 2014, 04:03:23 AM

They will also discover that skaters' parents (and adult skaters) actually do spend a lot of money in malls when they're there. When my rink was shut for maintenance (not a mall rink but still) the coffee shop in the facility (big sports complex with bowling and swimming to draw the public in) discovered their takings were down significantly. The swimmers don't stop for coffee as much as the skaters do. Swimming parents are generally there only for the 30min swimming lesson and then go, skaters are in multiple times a week for hours at a time and that's low level LTS. Before the rink was shut for maintenance they used to complain about us because we all had a loyalty discount card which they claimed we would abuse (by drinks for friends), but after the maintenance they loved us because they realised we did all have the loyalty card and in having it we would stop and spend (more) money.

This is a good point (among many in Fsk8r's post above), and is probably relevant to your situation too, icedancer.  Is there some way though that you can raise Mall Ownership awareness to this point BEFORE the construction happens, as opposed to letting them discover afterwards.  How much business might the mall lose with skaters and families going elsewhere (perhaps to more convenient shopping centers closer to their homes/ice)?

I do like her idea of a christmas/holiday show.  A smaller slab would make that impossible. 

Good luck with this!  I'll help however I can and sign whatever I can. I, too hate to see ice lost. 
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bill_S on August 31, 2014, 12:01:00 PM
You are not a customer to mall ownership / management. They lease space to the shops, and the shops themselves are the real customer. Mall owners desire to have an attractive space (with perks) to lease, and to lease as much space as possible. Of course it's in their best interest to have profitable shops leasing from them. That's where you come into the picture.

I suspect the mall owners are following a formula that works in many places, so you have to convince the shop owners that this particular rink space is different, has a different clientele, and attracts more people than other mall rinks. Some statistics and comparisons would help. I'd also start working with the shops themselves, and let them pass the message along to the mall owners. Their desires will carry more weight.

One thing working against you is that the plans are already in motion. It takes time and money for architects to draw up plans and create estimates for renovation. Once the process is set in motion, it tends to keep going. I suspect that you will have an uphill battle, sorry to say. However if the shops themselves sense that their profits may drop (especially if their rent is raised after the renovation), their voices will be more carefully considered. That's where to start.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 31, 2014, 01:40:14 PM
WOW -
 these are great suggestions!!  Thank you so much everyone!

We are working on getting an on-line petition in place (I will probably head this up) - right now there is a paper petition, some talk about making the rink a historic place (well, it is!) so that they can't do anything, T-shirts, several days of television news coverage, and our FB site.

Yes we do have a holiday show - but with local skaters only - I can't imagine them hiring anyone famous to come - we really don't have anyone in the area - our local skaters tend to - when they get to a certain level - move to the larger training centers... but it is a nice show - I am sure they will do it again this year - of course this is part of the whole rink management and no one on that level wanting to get involved - (there is of course more to this that I would rather not discuss online in any kind of public forum) -

But yes I like the idea of getting the shops in the area on board - great idea - the whole mall is going to be undergoing a renovation - they really want to update it and their reason for shrinking the rink is so that they can take a corner of the ice which will part of a huge circular stairway - there are also these interesting (and historic) bridges over the rink which will also be lost - apparently there is also a groundswell of people who don't want those bridges removed either - as it is a common place for people to meet up, etc.

I will let you know when there is an online petition -

And please "like" the Facebook page - the television media people are aware of it and have made that part of their coverage as in, "They even have a Facebook page" - so yesterday a few of us invited many many people to this page and and gained at least 100 "likes" in one day - I think that if there are more "likes" that will help.

Everything will help.

So yes, it is totally an uphill battle because the plans have been made... but there is still time as the actual construction is not slated to begin until mid-January.  I honestly have no problem with them doing the remodel, even remodeling the rink - but to make it smaller and oval shaped?  NO WAY!!

 :-\ ;D ;D
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on August 31, 2014, 02:51:29 PM
Maybe the mall has already made a deal with a merchant, and it's a lost cause.

Any way, talking to mall management (together with hockey club managers, if there are any) early makes sense, to see whether there is any hope at all. Do they now that an oval rink might lose both figure skating and hockey communities?

From everything I've heard, running a rink is a big job, that requires a fair degree of expertise. So I guess offering to take over rink management is probably out, if you've only a few coaches. Do you have an active figure skating club? (Of course, very few clubs have successfully run rinks.)

If you've had skaters go to Nationals, they might come for free to help save the club.

Maybe it is a good opportunity for one of the other rink managers to add a full sized rink, nearby. Might be worth talking to them too. Especially if you can interest community leaders in the idea of subsidizing a rink, and you can virtually guarantee them some rentals from the figure skating and hockey clubs.

When I tried to look into circumstances surrounding the potential closure of some nearby community-run rinks, I found myself completely amazed at how much money communities pump into recreational facilities. Not just ice rinks - parks, playing fields, basketball courts, pools, tennis courts, other sporting facilities, arts centers, community centers. Apparently they figure that these things help attract people to the community, and prevent some kids from joining gangs for lack of anything else to do, and they often have annual parks and recreation budgets in the millions or tens of millions of dollars. It seems self-serving to politic to get some of that money for your activity, but that really is the way the game is expected to be played.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 31, 2014, 02:57:32 PM
Good points all.

The rink is "owned" by a large rink management company that owns many recreational skating rinks in the country.  It is managed by a local team - that is really all I know.

There is a skating club based at the rink.  I am not sure how involved they want to be BUT one of the club officers called me and asked me to speak to one of the television reporters while they were at the rink (which I did, although I was late).

We have a lot of coaches actually (25?) - I like the idea of asking high-level local skaters to skate in our show - not sure how that would happen since the club doesn't run the show - the rink does.

So as you can see there are lots of ideas - and yes there is the whole "community involvement" thing - so people are contacting our mayor and city commissioners and I am aware that there are things going on beyond my scope - there is a planning meeting next week...

Oh there is no hockey - it is mall rink with no glass, etc. - also at 175 x 75 it is too small to play hockey although there is broomball... there used to be curling but they built their own rink for curling exclusively.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on August 31, 2014, 03:14:21 PM
Another random thought.....

While you're doing all the background work with the shops and the mall itself, Could you generate awareness through a special show sometime this fall?  I think Query or whoever said it above is right- the local kids who started there and wound up at Nationals+ would probably come.  Hopefully you have several skaters in that category you can get one or two of them to come back and skate, you'd generate attention, probably even from the news team.  If you're lucky there's even a well-known name among those skaters who've moved on.

Shoot- no one likes to see ice lost, I wonder if you couldn't get some of the big name skaters to donate a performance.  Asking is risk-free......  If you don't have personal connections, someone on here probably does.

If  you can get a show like this organized, and rink management doesn't want to get involved, then I don't see why the skating club couldn't hijack some if its own club time, say one Sat afternoon, or whenever you have prime time sessions.

Good luck!!!!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on August 31, 2014, 03:17:52 PM
I think getting the club more involved would be a great idea - will start working it from that angle - because if they lose the ice the club will move - will try to find out more...

We had some higher-level skaters come to a fund-raiser one time - this is when the club was  at another rink - (our area is small enough that everyone skates at all of the rinks and everyone knows each other for the most part) - so the connections are there...

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Neverdull44 on August 31, 2014, 09:22:11 PM
Would the mall be willing to also have hockey games?   People often will stay to watch a game, any level or age.   Have to put up hockey glass, but maybe that would also be a way to get people to the mall?
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 01, 2014, 02:23:25 PM
Thank you for your help everyone!  Our Facebook page has gone from 150 or so "likes" to over 700 in 2 days!!  I am sure that people here are helping us enormously!

Another thing to do would be to invite your friends to "like" the page also - especially your skating friends of course but I have found that even far-flung friends who have nothing to do with skating are supporting the page and our little cause. 

Whatever happens it is interesting what social media can do!

https://www.facebook.com/SaveOurSkaters

Oh - and to whoever asks about hockey - this is never going to be a draw at this rink - we are not so concerned at drawing people to the mall but just not changing our little piece of history to something that won't be that interesting,... or usable...
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on September 02, 2014, 09:48:27 AM
Until you talk with mall and rink management to find out if it is too late to change plans, you don't know if all your efforts are wasted.

NHL teams sometimes donate to deserving causes, without thinking about it too hard. Especially likely if any players on the team used to skate there - and those players might help personally too. In DC, the local NHL team contributed money to a charity that runs a rink that they don't use - $50,000 in 2012, and some more since. (But that rink that has hockey, and the 2012 money went towards starting a hockey LTS program.)

I get that you feel hockey-free rinks are better, but maybe the Winterhawks would consider contributing money to start a full sized center-city rink - good publicity for the team, and skaters may be more likely to watch hockey.

Anyway, best of luck. I'm all out of ideas.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 02, 2014, 02:42:48 PM
Query -

This is interesting but the Winterhawks already own one of the other rinks - in the suburbs (but really not that far) - I like the idea of course but not sure they would be wanting to sponsor two rinks in the area.

I also don't think non-hockey rinks are better - just that in this setting having hockey would be... complicated and the rink is already not regulation hockey-size.

Now that you mention it there is talk about having ANOTHER hockey team in town - a higher level team - maybe THEY would be interested.

You are right about mall and rink management.  It is possible that our efforts will be wasted but it has been interesting!
Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on September 02, 2014, 11:20:17 PM
Around DC, our NHL team owns (I think) another rink complex too.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 05, 2014, 10:37:33 PM
We had our first official organization meeting for Saving our Ice on Wednesday.  It was a great meeting - lots of ideas for who to contact, etc., some of our members have done a lot of work so far.

It seems that the company who now owns the mall, Cypress Equities - also owns the mall in Houston, Texas - the Galleria - which they similarly downsized several years ago -

http://www.galleriadallas.com/ice-skating-center-playplace/

the picture in this opening page makes the rink look HUGE but if you go further in (there is a link near the bottom of the page) you can see that the ice is really small - this is the template that they want to use for our rink.

I'm wondering if anyone from this group skates there (or used to skate there?) and what kinds of problems did they have after the downsizing?  In looking at their schedule I can see that they still have freestyles and offer a lot of lower-level LTS classes and I believe also an ISI program -

Anyway, we are busy sending off petitions, getting more organized, linking to twitter and instagram - basically hoping we are not just spinning our wheels (so to speak) - we shall prevail!!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: fsk8r on September 06, 2014, 05:51:59 AM
the link you've provided is to the Galleria Dallas and not the one in Houston.

This is the Houston one: http://www.iceatthegalleria.com.prod.ngin.com/page/show/453640-home

I did however used to skate at the one in Houston, but it was a small rink when I was there (smaller than NHL size) but was large enough to run a program on and low level dances. I get the feeling this is a similar size to what you have at the moment. Looking at the pictures on their website it doesn't look like it's changed size since I was last there which was 2007. I will say this, you used to lose a lot of ice come Holiday season when they dumped an enormous Christmas tree in the middle of the ice as it was the perfect spot for the display (unless you're a skater and it's a blimming nightmare trying to run a synchro program with a tree in the middle).

If you have for muddled with the one in Dallas, I can't help as I never made it up there.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: AgnesNitt on September 06, 2014, 08:09:00 AM
I thought David Kirby (former president of PSA and one of the developrs of IJS) ran the one in Dallas
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 06, 2014, 12:27:28 PM
the link you've provided is to the Galleria Dallas and not the one in Houston.


Yes, I meant Dallas - sorry - I got confused (having never really been to Texas except for passing through the airport...)

Thank you - our current rink there is our mall is less than NHL size (I think 175 x 75) BUT we are able to run a very full LTS program, do ice dance (our patterns have very tight lobes and our ice-dancers have very good edges as a result of having to fit the patterns in the rink) - we have tests and competitions - even higher level skaters I think up through Junior Ladies at our last competition -

Cutting off the corners (making it an oval) and shortening will make it impossible to do dance patterns, tests, competitions, etc.

I did not know that David Kirby was involved with that rink - do you have any more information?

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: AgnesNitt on September 06, 2014, 02:55:00 PM
I did not know that David Kirby was involved with that rink - do you have any more information?

It's kind of old (2011) but he mentions it in this interview: http://www.manleywoman.com/episode-50-david-kirby/

He's no longer mentioned as coaching staff on their website, so he may have retired-retired. I don't know if he's still coaching or anything.

I think Dan Hollander goes to the Dallas Galleria every year and does his Santa routine, including full backflip.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 06, 2014, 03:19:05 PM
Thanks for the link - yes he mentions it but of course doesn't mention what changing the size of the rink did for the skating program!!

We are over 100 "likes" on our Facebook page and someone has sent a very large paper petition to the new mall owners and all of our city commissioners, etc. - there will be an article running in our local paper some time next week... and so things are happening.

Uphill battle for sure!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 10, 2014, 04:25:00 PM
Our change.org petition is now up so if anyone wants to sign it and circulate it amongst their friends - skating or otherwise, facebook or otherwise, that would be DIVINE!

http://www.change.org/p/cypress-equities-save-our-ice-don-t-shrink-the-rink

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bill_S on September 10, 2014, 06:42:39 PM
Signed!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bill_S on September 11, 2014, 12:04:32 PM
BTW, that is one beautiful rink as shown on the petition page. (Where's the ENVY smiley when you need it!)

(http://d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net/photos/9/rt/hp/ylRtHpclQyvXZwy-556x313-noPad.jpg)

 It really would be a shame to see that space go.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 11, 2014, 12:12:14 PM
Bill - thank you for showing that photo!!

I have given you some MAJOR GOE for you support and for posting this photograph.

We hope to get a mock-up photograph soon of what the rink would look like with the changes - maybe even photoshop people trying to skate there....

It is a lovely rink - I didn't like it when I first moved to Portland because it is smaller than NHL size and much warmer - now I am used to it and love it - also had trouble because people are always watching you - BUT our kids get so used to people watched them that I think they are more comfortable skating at competitions where there is an audience - they are used to playing to an audience!!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: rachelplotkin on September 11, 2014, 01:30:50 PM
Signed and posted link to my FB page.  Here's hoping your efforts will be successful.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Kitten23 on September 11, 2014, 08:09:17 PM
I signed the petition of Change.Org.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 15, 2014, 10:31:02 PM
Thank you!


Some of us spoke with a reporter from our local paper, the Oregonian, last week - this article appeared in their online version last Friday and in print today - front page - above the fold!!

Here is a link to the online version.  The print version has better photographs and headline but is not available online except for subscribers.  Unfortunately, Monday is a day that people with home-delivery don't receive a paper, but you can still buy it at news stands so some people will see it!

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/09/lloyd_center_ice_rink_will_be.html

Oh - and we have "Don't Shrink the Rink" T-shirts now - we will be wearing them skating and around town - we hope to get some photographs up on the internet sometime soon.

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on September 15, 2014, 11:19:21 PM
Great article!  Hopefully it'll bring some more attention to the situation.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: PhysicsOnIce on September 16, 2014, 05:09:11 AM
Petition signed!! and circulating around the Belgian Skating Community.
Our new club skates on a 20m x40m (or there abouts), So we know your pain rather well! Programs don't fit at all and dance patterns are impossible. We've managed to get ice time at another rink on Sundays for two hours, but even that is limited.

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 16, 2014, 11:49:27 AM
Thank you!

Another online article appeared today - they are really working it!!

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/09/will_shrinking_the_lloyd_cente.html#incart_related_stories
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: twinskaters on September 16, 2014, 12:24:25 PM
I noticed one of the photos (of the zamboni on the ice) said that the new rink would not be maintained by a zamboni. I've never seen a year-round rink that didn't use one, and now I'm curious how they would maintain the ice surface?
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 16, 2014, 02:48:35 PM
I hadn't noticed that! Your guess is as good as mine, LOL

Hoping it's a typo.  With a smaller rink they will need to get a new, smaller zamboni.  I have seen that.

Otherwise yeah, what are they going to do, pour water on it every week or so?   :nvm:
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on September 16, 2014, 03:03:49 PM
I hadn't noticed that! Your guess is as good as mine, LOL

Hoping it's a typo.  With a smaller rink they will need to get a new, smaller zamboni.  I have seen that.

Otherwise yeah, what are they going to do, pour water on it every week or so?   :nvm:

Don't laugh.  When I was doing study abroad in Townsville, Australia, there was a rink.  The teeniniest little rink I have ever seen.  I couldn't even begin to guess it's size, but barely big enough to set up a lutz.  But this was Northern Queensland- tropical, and it was probably the only ice in several 100's of K's.   As I recall there was some sort of hockey there, too.

It was too small to zam, and square shaped, iir.  So periodically they'd scrape it off by hand.  I don't know if they'd hose it down or not, but I imagine so.  I was never present for this process (just there to help out teaching group lessons). By normal standards, the ice was a disaster, but considering the circumstances, it wasn't bad.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: AgnesNitt on September 16, 2014, 04:22:25 PM
I noticed one of the photos (of the zamboni on the ice) said that the new rink would not be maintained by a zamboni. I've never seen a year-round rink that didn't use one, and now I'm curious how they would maintain the ice surface?

Zamboni is a brand name. They may mean they'll get an ice resurfacer from another company.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: twinskaters on September 16, 2014, 08:50:29 PM

Zamboni is a brand name. They may mean they'll get an ice resurfacer from another company.

I hope so. It's a strange thing to say though, if that's what they meant. I mean, why does the general public care whether it's Zamboni brand or not?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 16, 2014, 09:06:37 PM
I hope so. It's a strange thing to say though, if that's what they meant. I mean, why does the general public care whether it's Zamboni brand or not?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The word Zamboni is like saying "Kleenex" - yes it is a brand but we call all tissues Kleenex.  I have only known a few people who call a zamboni by another name...

I will try to find out.  I hope it is not like Loops suggested - that they would shovel it off once in a while and then use squeegees or something like in the old days... but honestly I would not be surprised.

I still think it was a typo, or incomplete thought - like, "This Zamboni will be too big for the new, tiny ice".

Good catch though!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on September 17, 2014, 03:44:15 AM


I will try to find out.  I hope it is not like Loops suggested - that they would shovel it off once in a while and then use squeegees or something like in the old days... but honestly I would not be surprised.



I suspect you are correct and they're planning on a smaller Zam.  There's no technological reason to squeegee anymore.

But if you think it might be fruitful and the rink managers are still staying out of it, you might want to casually mention this to them if you can find a good chatty context.  Plant the idea in their head....because if it comes to it, who do you think is at risk for the squeegee-ing job?  hint: Not you......

Might help motivate them.....

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 17, 2014, 11:41:17 AM
I suspect you are correct and they're planning on a smaller Zam.  There's no technological reason to squeegee anymore.

But if you think it might be fruitful and the rink managers are still staying out of it, you might want to casually mention this to them if you can find a good chatty context.  Plant the idea in their head....because if it comes to it, who do you think is at risk for the squeegee-ing job?  hint: Not you......

Might help motivate them.....

Hee-hee - you know this is exactly what I would do!!  You and I are definitely on the same page here.

I will see what can happen.  Thanks.

I think the "Zamboni" in question is actually an "Olympia" or something like that - may be an electric zam.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: lutefisk on September 17, 2014, 12:51:11 PM
Hee-hee - you know this is exactly what I would do!!  You and I are definitely on the same page here.

I will see what can happen.  Thanks.

I think the "Zamboni" in question is actually an "Olympia" or something like that - may be an electric zam.

Apropos of nothing, I'm surprised that someone hasn't introduced an automated ice resurfacer.  There are vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers that can do similar tasks without a human at the controls.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: twinskaters on September 17, 2014, 12:59:58 PM
Apropos of nothing, I'm surprised that someone hasn't introduced an automated ice resurfacer.  There are vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers that can do similar tasks without a human at the controls.

Apparently I have nothing better to do than read about ice resurfacing today. Here's one discussion of exactly this question! http://www.geek.com/news/why-hasnt-frank-zambonis-invention-been-replaced-by-ice-roombas-1536239/
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on September 17, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
I love the idea of an automated resurfacer. The linked-to discussion suggests that a human adapts to ice conditions better - but that could be dealt with by sensors, just like some high tech tractors now have sophisticated sensing equipment to decide how much fertilizer, of what types, is needed on different spots of soil.

But the obvious problem would come if some kid is slow to get off the ice, and gets run over by the robot. Plus, at some rinks, some of the kids and adults already skate fast around the machine doing the ice (one of my ex-coaches liked to conduct lessons then, on the relatively uncrowded ice) - and the robot wouldn't be able to yell at them with sufficient authority to stay off.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: lutefisk on September 17, 2014, 02:41:33 PM
I love the idea of an automated resurfacer. The linked-to discussion suggests that a human adapts to ice conditions better - but that could be dealt with by sensors, just like some high tech tractors now have sophisticated sensing equipment to decide how much fertilizer, of what types, is needed on different spots of soil.

But the obvious problem would come if some kid is slow to get off the ice, and gets run over by the robot. Plus, at some rinks, some of the kids and adults already skate fast around the machine doing the ice (one of my ex-coaches liked to conduct lessons then, on the relatively uncrowded ice) - and the robot wouldn't be able to yell at them with sufficient authority to stay off.

You could always have the ice monitors "gently" insure everyone was off the ice and then electronically close/lock all the doors once the robotic gizmo was out on the sheet.  An extra touch would be to electrify the access doors, like electric cattle fencing, to keep overachievers off the ice until resurfacing was complete.  Additional drone technology like heat sensors could be incorporated into the robot permitting it to seek out any, um, "stragglers".  Ve haff vays to make you cooperate...
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on September 18, 2014, 09:02:04 PM
If people e-sign the petition who don't live in the area, and rink management does due diligence, to try to check that out - as they reasonably should - it could be counterproductive.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 19, 2014, 01:23:54 AM
If people e-sign the petition who don't live in the area, and rink management does due diligence, to try to check that out - as they reasonably should - it could be counterproductive.

I don't see where that matters - people are pretty passionate about this issue whether they are skaters or people who have passed through and loved Portland and have seen the rink, or if they skate in similar situations like a group in Belgium who skate on a small rink and have an opinion about it. 
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on September 19, 2014, 03:26:21 AM
You could always have the ice monitors "gently" insure everyone was off the ice and then electronically close/lock all the doors once the robotic gizmo was out on the sheet.  An extra touch would be to electrify the access doors, like electric cattle fencing, to keep overachievers off the ice until resurfacing was complete.  Additional drone technology like heat sensors could be incorporated into the robot permitting it to seek out any, um, "stragglers".  Ve haff vays to make you cooperate...

Teeheehee!  Needed the chuckle- thanks Lutefisk!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bill_S on September 19, 2014, 07:20:00 AM
If people e-sign the petition who don't live in the area, and rink management does due diligence, to try to check that out - as they reasonably should - it could be counterproductive.

In my petition statement, I mentioned the very real possibility of visiting Portland as a travel destination in the future, and listed the rink as something I'd like to visit while I'm there. The rink makes the mall a tourist destination. Without the beautiful rink, it's just another mall.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bunny Hop on September 20, 2014, 03:14:36 AM
Don't laugh.  When I was doing study abroad in Townsville, Australia, there was a rink.  The teeniniest little rink I have ever seen.  I couldn't even begin to guess it's size, but barely big enough to set up a lutz.  But this was Northern Queensland- tropical, and it was probably the only ice in several 100's of K's.   As I recall there was some sort of hockey there, too.

It was too small to zam, and square shaped, iir.  So periodically they'd scrape it off by hand.  I don't know if they'd hose it down or not, but I imagine so.  I was never present for this process (just there to help out teaching group lessons). By normal standards, the ice was a disaster, but considering the circumstances, it wasn't bad.
The rink in Hobart, Tasmania is one quarter size. They hose water onto the ice and then use a small tractor dragging a scraper to resurface the ice. It was interesting, to put it mildly, to try and fit in a dance pattern on a rink that size. They were putting together a synchro team down there at one point as well - I can't imagine how they managed to practice!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Loops on October 03, 2014, 11:30:05 AM
I just learned that a similar battle came to a successful conclusion over in the UK.  Here are their FB pages:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/216105301846921/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/566559856730965/


Icedancer, maybe you and your people could get into cahoots with the organizers over there and talk strategy.  They were actually going to lose their ice, not just have it made barely usable, but I think there are more similarities than differences in your situation.

And if anyone wants to see the scariest slab of ice in the world, google Hemel Ice Rink- there are 5 (well padded) pillars lined up right down the middle  :o  Sounds like they call them the "pillars of wisdom" ......
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: fsk8r on October 03, 2014, 11:46:46 AM
Down the road from the rink in Hemel there is Milton Keynes which also has a rink. This is currently closed for refurbishment without a temporary rink being offered. Hemel isn't seen as particularly good for serious training (the pillars have something to do with this!), and the next nearest rink is a LONG way away. So the skaters at Milton Keynes set up a group and managed to lease a former grocery store and install inside a temporary rink. It's been run by all the volunteers and is doing really well by all accounts.
I just thought it gives people hope that you can do something about it, if everyone works together and puts their mind to it.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on October 05, 2014, 02:30:27 PM
I just learned that a similar battle came to a successful conclusion over in the UK.  Here are their FB pages:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/216105301846921/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/566559856730965/


Icedancer, maybe you and your people could get into cahoots with the organizers over there and talk strategy.  They were actually going to lose their ice, not just have it made barely usable, but I think there are more similarities than differences in your situation.


Thank you for posting this - I see they also had a change.org petition but they were able to get a LOT more signatures than we have so far - wondering how we could contact them - also not clear to me yet if they were going up against a huge corporation vs. a municipality - which might be easier but it looks from my brief read on this that they were going against a corporation... wow.

Thank you and if anyone would like to sign our petition it would be most helpful!  Thank you!

http://www.change.org/p/cypress-equities-save-our-ice-don-t-shrink-the-rink
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on October 05, 2014, 02:53:07 PM
OTOH, an oval rink might be just fine for speed skating.

Gee, this idea is sinful, but if you could make it look to rink management like you were trying to put together an investment group to build a new full sized rink, that might help.

Say, a "letter to the editor" of whatever type of local paper, and/or a call to your local radio station talk show - detailing the problem, and how it is going to eliminate (in your opinion  :) ) virtually all the business going to the old rink, leaving an opportunity for a new rink to take that business over. Then quietly provide a copy of the newspaper letter and/or a recording of the talk show to management.

If you could get someone authoritative, like rink alumni, and that PSA guy, to make the call, that might be even more fun.

In fact the talk show is a great way to attract community attention to the problem.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on October 05, 2014, 04:21:33 PM
OTOH, an oval rink might be just fine for speed skating.

Gee, this idea is sinful, but if you could make it look to rink management like you were trying to put together an investment group to build a new full sized rink, that might help.

Say, a "letter to the editor" of whatever type of local paper, and/or a call to your local radio station talk show - detailing the problem, and how it is going to eliminate (in your opinion  :) ) virtually all the business going to the old rink, leaving an opportunity for a new rink to take that business over. Then quietly provide a copy of the newspaper letter and/or a recording of the talk show to management.

If you could get someone authoritative, like rink alumni, and that PSA guy, to make the call, that might be even more fun.

In fact the talk show is a great way to attract community attention to the problem.

Oval for Speed skating LOL - yeah, except it will be too short to gain any actual speed.

The skating club is basically looking for other options - and of course the idea of building a new rink or maybe someone ELSE (like one of the nearby universities) building a new rink or using the big old hockey arena (used for our local hockey team - the Winterhawks) for ice - all of these ideas are out there floating - even if they keep the size of our rink there is definitely going to be a remodel which will take a lot of time and so people are looking for ice everywhere.

We have already had our television and newspaper interviews... maybe there will be follow-ups.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on October 07, 2014, 10:05:06 AM
I wasn't saying you need to build another rink. Only that  you make rink management think you will if they do the size change.

I hope rink management is aware of all the public activity you are doing - maybe they aren't paying any attention.

The real shame will be if resizing the rink loses them so much business that they have to close altogether.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on October 07, 2014, 11:38:49 AM
I wasn't saying you need to build another rink. Only that  you make rink management think you will if they do the size change.

I hope rink management is aware of all the public activity you are doing - maybe they aren't paying any attention.

The real shame will be if resizing the rink loses them so much business that they have to close altogether.

Local management is aware of what we are doing... the rink is managed by a remote company (Rink Management Services?) - and so who knows what they know - it is definitely all about the business -

And yes the new venture will most likely lose money - but as it will be cheaper to run (smaller) less people (less staff) then maybe they will get what they want with their pretty new rink and remodeled mall - where the money could be spent doing something more useful.

I'd be surprised if the rink closed altogether - apparently there is some sort of covenant that states that there must always be a rink since the person who built the mall in the first place had a daughter or grand-daughter that was a figure skater which is why there is a rink there in the first place! 
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on October 08, 2014, 05:58:29 PM
I'd be surprised if the rink closed altogether - apparently there is some sort of covenant that states that there must always be a rink since the person who built the mall in the first place had a daughter or grand-daughter that was a figure skater which is why there is a rink there in the first place!

How incredibly cool!

Have you looked at the covenant? (I have no idea if there is a way to find private contracts. Maybe if you could find the person in question, or their heir, or the figure skater in question, they could be of help.) Wouldn't it be even cooler if it barred small-sizing the rink?

But that would be too lucky... Without such a rule, it could be the size of a postage stamp.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Casey on October 19, 2014, 01:15:16 AM
I skated there once...unique experience. Don't have any advice, but I hope things work out well in the end!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on October 19, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
I skated there once...unique experience. Don't have any advice, but I hope things work out well in the end!

Thanks Casey!  Did you find and sign the petition?

You can imagine how it will be to skate on it if it is any smaller and changing the shape to an oval is a really really bad idea.

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Casey on October 21, 2014, 07:44:41 AM
Thanks Casey!  Did you find and sign the petition?

You can imagine how it will be to skate on it if it is any smaller and changing the shape to an oval is a really really bad idea.

I did now!  Not sure how much my vote counts since I live in Maryland now, but put in my vote anyways.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on October 21, 2014, 02:42:14 PM
Casey thank you for signing our petition!  I am giving you some GOE for this!!

I don't think it matters where you are in the world - it is about losing ice and your comment on the petition was exactly perfect - you have skated there - you know it is already smaller than normal NHL size but is skatable and unique in itself as it is.

Things are moving along slowly - I am still hoping against hope that they will reconsider and give us at least a little more length and perhaps not make the oval so... OVAL!!

If anyone else wants to sign our petition (and get GOE from me- you will have to PM me to let me know since I don't know all of your actual names) - there is is once again:

https://www.facebook.com/SaveOurSkaters

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on February 19, 2015, 12:30:21 PM
Just bumping this one up again - to let everyone know that our petition is still up and people are still signing it:

https://www.change.org/p/cypress-equities-save-our-ice-don-t-shrink-the-rink

Although the rink was originally told that they would close in January for the remodel, so far it is still open and things are going along - no one knows when it will close or whether there have been any alterations in the plans.  Everyone, including management, is being left in the dark pretty much.

Classes are still going on - on a week-to-week basis - you pay for the week and get all of your publics along with that, which is great but there is still a sense of un-ease. There have been some changes in the mall - stores closing, moving - the movie theaters on the top level closed recently... there are guys walking around with clipboards and talking, some newspaper coverage about potential leaseholders for the store spaces and a lot of unanswered questions...
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Bill_S on February 19, 2015, 04:56:02 PM
Thanks for the update. I had sometimes wondered about the status of your rink.

My fingers are still crossed, hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on February 19, 2015, 08:23:32 PM
A truly evil, devious thought:

Since famous people skated there, it may arguably be a historic landmark.

Talk to people in the local historical society - but make sure no one in management belongs - mall and rink management would NOT like that, so don't let them know you are trying if you can help it.

Also - trying to make it an historic landmark is not a good way to make management like you. Maybe not such a good idea, now that I think about it.

But still fun to think about.  ::>)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on February 19, 2015, 09:33:58 PM
A truly evil, devious thought:

Since famous people skated there, it may arguably be a historic landmark.

Talk to people in the local historical society - but make sure no one in management belongs - mall and rink management would NOT like that, so don't let them know you are trying if you can help it.

Also - trying to make it an historic landmark is not a good way to make management like you. Maybe not such a good idea, now that I think about it.

But still fun to think about.  ::>)

Oh, Query, we have already gone down this road - in fact this is the first road we went down LOL - there was some "glitch" and I can't quite remember what it was.

It is interesting to me that in the last two days there have been over 25 more signatures on the petition - and by some people in the business community here as well - so who knows who is getting spoken to about what... the mall is a "small potatoes" topic around here right now with our governor resigning and all but STILL!!!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on September 02, 2015, 10:45:14 AM
Reviving an old thread here… I just discovered that the conference I'm going to in January will literally be across the street from Lloyd Center (well, the conference is at the convention center, but I'll be staying at the hotel next to the mall).  Any update on this?  Did they stick to their original plan or were you able to get anywhere with your petition?
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 02, 2015, 04:20:36 PM
Well - yes, thanks for bringing this up!

So far NOTHING has happened with the rink.  There have been changes in the mall, - movie theaters closing, stores moving - Nordstrom moved out and there is a giant empty store there but there has been no real movement over the actual re-model.

We have been told that the rink will close mid-January... but basically it is like "WHENEVER" -

We wonder if it will ever happen, whether the rink will actually shrink and whether our petition and other action has been at all effective.  We just don't know.

So if you come in January, bring your skates, especially if you are coming the first two weeks.  If you are coming later, private message me and I will let you know what is happening.

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on September 02, 2015, 04:52:59 PM
Good to know!  There's stuff about it on the mall web site; they mention January but no other details; they say the new rink will be a "more traditional oval" but neglect to mention it'll be smaller.  http://www.lloydcenter.com/renovation  I'll be there the first week of January.  I'll bring my skates!  (Next step:  Look into rules about flying with skates…)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 02, 2015, 06:12:46 PM
Funny I have not seen this website before - at least not this current article.  I see this article is from August 2014 - this is about the time we became aware of the changes that were coming.

I think that there has been some trouble with them getting the permits for a lot of the changes that they wanted to make and also have heard rumors that the original architectural firm that was going to do the bulk of the work has pulled out - we saw a group of architects standing rinkside last week that looked like they were making a bid... so I think the process has slowed a lot.

Some of the changes mentioned in this article have already come about - like the LED lighting in the underground parking lots - that has been nice.

So yes, bring you skates and if you want to meet up let me know!  Also happy to host skatingforums people at our little rink.

Oh - and "traditional oval shape" - who knows where they got that idea LOL   The rink does need renovation - new pipes, etc. - so that is a good thing.  But it does not need to be any smaller, or have the corners cut off that is for sure!


Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on September 02, 2015, 06:50:04 PM
Yeah, if they're still (or back) at the architect stage they're probably seriously delayed. 

I'd love to meet up!  I'll get in touch when we get closer to the date and I know more about the conference schedule.  I'm usually pretty booked but there's only so long I can sit and listen to talks… maybe I'll drag some colleagues.   ;)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 02, 2015, 07:04:57 PM
Well, there is also the thing about them doing this massive remodel and the timing thereof - the stores DO NOT want anything to interfere with their precious Christmas shopping season.

And yes, bring you skates and enjoy our basically all-day public sessions starting at 10am and most go until 5 when FS and skate school starts.  There are also evening publics which if you want to come to when you are in town I will come to and meet up.  Otherwise I usually skate during the day, in the morning at 10 (a couple of days a week - but my schedule can be pretty flexible).
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on September 02, 2015, 08:37:45 PM
OK!  (Hoping school is back in session by then so maybe it's not that crowded during the day, though I'll probably be busy with conference stuff.)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on September 03, 2015, 03:03:23 PM
The renovation page discusses "upgrading" the rink.  :)

If you can find out who plans to bid, maybe you and other skaters can submit to them your idea of what a true "upgrade" would be.  :WS:

It's amazing that a management company wouldn't ask the skating community what constitutes an "upgrade" before spending significant money on it.

An electrician who worked for a university told me about how the University of Maryland selects building architectural proposals. They don't consult with their maintenance departments regarding proposed plans. For example, they accepted and had built an athletics center in which a large light bulb that lit up a large fraction of the complex was in a high tower. There was no practical way for an electrician to get into the tower. So changing the light bulb would likely involve tearing down and rebuilding the tower. The maintenance staff looked at the plans, and realized the problem before it was built, but they were never asked for their opinion... The athletics center is absolutely gorgeous, and that's probably all that mattered to the selection committee.

That's a long way of saying that an architect's view of "upgrade" might differ from a skater's view. Beauty trumps functionality.  :)

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 03, 2015, 06:01:52 PM
Well, the new owners of the mall also own two malls in Texas which have had similar situations - turning a nearly regulation-size mall-based rink into a smaller oval, so they do have experience in this area.

Those rinks are in Houston and Dallas respectively - I believe they are both called The Galleria Mall. 

In both cases the skating community was ignored, protested the changes and generally don't run very big skating programs in these smaller, oval mall rinks.

The Save our Ice petition was intended to petition both the owners of the mall (Cypress Equities) and the original architectural firm that was hired to do the re-model of the mall including the rink.  At this point we just don't have any information about who is going to be doing the actual work so it is hard to approach them.

Our local newspapers and television stations have done pieces about the "Rink Shrinkage" problem from the point of view of the skaters.  There have been several articles and lots of discussion forums, etc.

As far as rink management I think they don't really care (mall management also) - the rink is a revenue center but they are not so interested in the developmental programs for figure skaters and see the rink as a place where recreational skaters can have some fun while shopping... or instead of shopping... or something.  So why would these recreational skaters care about how big the rink is?

A smaller rink will probably be cheaper to run since it will take less energy to run it (that is their general train of thought).

Many people in the Portland area think the work is being done or has already taken place.  Although the mall is really in the center of the central city's east side, going to the mall is really not of interest to most people - the only reason I go there is to go to the rink - of course along the way I do some shopping, there are some nice restaurants there, stores I may frequent - but frankly most of my friends never set foot in the mall.

If I had my way (which I don't) - I would turn the mall into an open-air mall, keep the rink (cover it) - I think people in this area are more open to shopping in open spaces - a lot of the suburban "malls" are more open air - they seem to attract more people.

Just my two cents.

Thanks for keeping this discussion going.  I see that our petition has gotten 10 signatures in just the last day - so maybe some of those signatures are from the people on this forum.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on September 17, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
Just in case anyone wanted to sign our petition but couldn't because it was closed for a week - it has re-opened!

Thank you!

https://www.change.org/p/cypress-equities-save-our-ice-don-t-shrink-the-rink
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on December 30, 2015, 09:09:51 AM
Their calendar now has public skate and freestyle times listed through Jan 17, so I'm guessing that's when they're planning to shut it down?   :(

I'll be in town Jan 3-8, so I'm hoping to find some skating time then.  Do you know whether there are lockers or someplace secure to leave stuff while I skate?
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on December 31, 2015, 10:19:05 AM
Well, the new owners of the mall also own two malls in Texas which have had similar situations - turning a nearly regulation-size mall-based rink into a smaller oval

I was just thinking. If these people own or are buying up a lot of old malls with rinks, that they plan to "improve", you could start organizing people in all those towns to protest the "upgrade"! :)

Maybe even start a movement to try to stop them from taking over more rinks.

It has the potential to spread like a plague. :)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on January 01, 2016, 02:35:13 PM
Their calendar now has public skate and freestyle times listed through Jan 17, so I'm guessing that's when they're planning to shut it down?   :(

I'll be in town Jan 3-8, so I'm hoping to find some skating time then.  Do you know whether there are lockers or someplace secure to leave stuff while I skate?

There are lockers - hopefully you will get one.  If not I would recommend bringing a minimum amount of private stuff into the rink area - I usually stow a couple of things in my skate bag and put it on the boards so I can keep an eye on it.

The morning publics are usually really good - they start at 10am and go basically all day - there will be several adult skaters there - if you want to meet up let me know!

Supposedly they are closing the 17th or thereabouts - but they were supposed to close a lot of dates in the past year so I will believe it when I see it!

As far as the company buying a lot of malls with rinks in them - it is true that this same management company owns the mall in Houston and Dallas where they shrunk their rinks - I actually think that in one of the places they didn't make the rink smaller but they rounded the corners to make the rink more oval. 

I am not sure how we would find out if they are purposely buying old malls with rinks and transforming them and making them into playgrounds for shoppers... I kind of doubt it but I will also say that I don't think they care one little bit about the skating communities that they have altered with their silly plans about smaller oval rinks.

Interesting idea though -
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on January 01, 2016, 07:39:54 PM
There are lockers - hopefully you will get one.  If not I would recommend bringing a minimum amount of private stuff into the rink area - I usually stow a couple of things in my skate bag and put it on the boards so I can keep an eye on it.

The morning publics are usually really good - they start at 10am and go basically all day - there will be several adult skaters there - if you want to meet up let me know!

Supposedly they are closing the 17th or thereabouts - but they were supposed to close a lot of dates in the past year so I will believe it when I see it!

Good to know, thanks!  I can keep things to a minimum just in case I don't get a locker.  I'll let you know once I know my schedule.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on January 16, 2016, 04:23:54 PM
Well, the rink is closing after tomorrow's sessions and the renovations will begin.  It is supposed to re-open in it's new incarnation in November.  My guess is that it take a lot longer than that because that is how these things go.

The skating community is pretty sad about this and many many people plan to be there for the "last-day" festivities.  Although we made a pretty good effort to try to get the powers-that-be to consider keeping (or increasing) the current size and shape all indications are that the plans for a smaller, elliptical-shaped rink will be going forward.

I don't feel that this has been a complete failure as this has drawn together people from all facets of the skating community and the Portland community who treasure this unique rink which was the first of its kind anywhere in the world.  Hopefully it will make us stronger as a community and we will still see each other at the other normal sized, cold rinks in our area.

For me it will mean more driving and probably more over-all expense as this mall rink had one of the best deals I've ever seen in skating - sign up for a class (~$40/month) and get all public sessions included (and at $11.50 - $13.50 per session this was phenomenal) - and the sessions ran basically all day from 10am - 6pm so you could go any time it fit into your schedule. 
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skategeek on January 16, 2016, 05:23:48 PM
 :( :( :(
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on January 17, 2016, 12:00:49 PM
Awww.  You have our sympathies.

Will they raise their prices to pay for "improvements"?

Incidentally, it is possible that the shopping center has been subsidizing the operation of the rink, especially for LTS students. It's not unusual for the total costs of running a rink well, in a warm microclimate, such as inside a heated mall, to run $1-$2 million/year.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on January 17, 2016, 05:50:17 PM
Awww.  You have our sympathies.

Will they raise their prices to pay for "improvements"?

Incidentally, it is possible that the shopping center has been subsidizing the operation of the rink, especially for LTS students. It's not unusual for the total costs of running a rink well, in a warm microclimate, such as inside a heated mall, to run $1-$2 million/year.

Thank you - I hope they don't raise their prices because they are the most expensive in town as it is!

And yeah, it has never been clear if the mall has been subsidizing the rink at all as the rink is run by a separate company called Rink Management Services.  That is all I know.

Sad day for all but I was there this morning and plan to go back this afternoon for "the last hour".
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on January 20, 2016, 08:38:15 PM
Rink Management Services (http://www.rinkmanagement.com/) is "the largest operator of ice skating facilities in the U.S." They operate some ice rinks around my area (DC). They run both private and public rinks - often under contract to another company or organization, so sometimes they don't call all the shots. Some are fairly well run.

This may be the wrong time to say this, but they aren't the source of all evil. In my neighborhood.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on January 20, 2016, 09:23:06 PM
Rink Management Services (http://www.rinkmanagement.com/) is "the largest operator of ice skating facilities in the U.S." They operate some ice rinks around my area (DC). They run both private and public rinks - often under contract to another company or organization, so sometimes they don't call all the shots. Some are fairly well run.

This may be the wrong time to say this, but they aren't the source of all evil. In my neighborhood.

No they are NOT the source of evil here AT ALL - the source of evil is Cypress Equities, a Texas company that bought the mall and has no idea about the Portland market.  They are all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on January 21, 2016, 02:13:52 PM
Cypress Equities' corporate portfolio speaks of a "Survival of the fittest" management philosophy - which might mean that if they receive a lot of complaints about local management, that management could be out. :)

What I was really saying was that lobbying Rink Management Services may have been pointless. Mall management may have directed you to talk to them as a buffer, or to keep you out of their hair.

At the RMS rinks where I've skated, RMS provides most of the troops on the ground, makes sure they have the technical know and training to do daily and somewhat less frequent maintenance, and has real experts on call. They also interface to the public, keep the facilities and the ice clean, publish schedules and usually keep to those schedules. In large part, RMS seems a solid professional company that does what they are paid to do. Very likely, they are being paid to perform all or most of the renovation of the rink itself, and will profit from it, but that doesn't mean they made all the decisions, or were consulted regarding its overall shape.

I've been told, for a lot of public and private facilities, there are architects who make a lot of upper level decisions. Most real architects have at least some engineering training, and may even be fully qualified building engineers, but there are a lot of decisions that they assume responsibility for that sometimes turn out wrong - so says the master electrician I know. The architect may have followed a vision of how the facility should be renovated to "look", and may never had heard your complaints and suggestions, nor have been aware that something as abstract (to him or her) as rink shape would make a big difference.

Were I you, I would have gone to Cypress's top level marketing and property management people (http://www.cypressequities.com/team-profiles/cypress-equities/), and explained the issues, in a very calm, articulate manner. Even now, knowing there is an issue will give those people something to look for - if, and only if rink usage actually drops significantly, or fails to meet goals. (Based on http://www.lloydcenter.com/renovation, they are definitely putting a lot of money into "improving" Lloyd Center. They make it sound like the result will be very beautiful, regardless of functionality. Perhaps they will actually make the rink more popular to the general public. But close the rink until November?)

If other businesses are expanding into the released area, it may be too late to do anything to give the rink a more rectangular shape again, but if not, it might be something they would consider. More likely, perhaps they would direct mall management, and/or RMS, to try to accommodate your other concerns - even if the rink is not ideal for practicing full-rink skating patterns, you can probably various types of classes, clinics, and special events there, and have other types of lessons there. Especially if you offered to help them set up some of those activities (if you aren't already), though of course that would consume some of your valuable time.

I probably would not say in public Internet forums that "the source of evil is Cypress Equities," as that might make them less eager to continue the conversation.

Though it might have been fun to organize people to skate on the last day in mourning attire.

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on January 21, 2016, 02:44:21 PM
Yes Query we have done all of that - very nice letters directly to Cypress Equities to voice our concerns, discussions with architects about the problems you have pointed out, discussions with mall management - it has fallen on deaf ears and now the remodel has begun. 

We shall see how it all sorts out when it opens in November  (supposedly). I'm sure the rink will be functional for LTS, patch class (!), recreational skater events, show numbers, etc.  It has always been a "small rink" at 175 x 75 BUT it was functional for competitions and tests and had a very active social ice dance presence, there were clinics there given by well-known choreographers and skaters and because there was no hockey there were evening public sessions and free-styles for the working people and LTS skaters.  Public sessions ran all day from 10am - 6pm.

The other rinks in the area are in the suburbs whereas this mall rink is in Portland proper and easily accessible because of proximity to the highway and public transportation.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: AgnesNitt on June 14, 2016, 09:21:07 PM
Bumping this.

I see the rink is closed with a planned opening for November. What's the status?

Also, in going through the old posts, I remember that the new rink is not going to use a zamboni. Is it going to be synthetic ice?

Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: Query on June 14, 2016, 11:50:13 PM
Skaters who are only used to Olympic rinks sometimes run out of space at international competitions held in NHL-size rinks. Your students won't have that problem. :)

If you run a multi-rink competition, your students will have an ::>) 

(Incidentally, some sub-size rinks in my area run figure and hockey comps.)
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: skatezilla on June 15, 2016, 02:37:21 AM
The rink is still slated for a mid-November opening. It will be real ice. I'm not sure where you heard about not having a Zamboni as I've never heard that. However, it will be significantly smaller and in an oval shape. I'll just be happy to skate in a warm environment again.
Title: Re: Help Save Our Ice!
Post by: icedancer on June 15, 2016, 02:11:00 PM
I heard Nov 1 opening - they have been working on it since it closed - yes, there will be a zamboni and real ice.

It has been good going to the other "big rinks" but they are more of a drive for me - I live 5 minutes drive from this mall rink - so yes, looking forward to the opening.

I don't care how big it is. 

Dance patterns may be difficult but at this point I just need to get feet on the ice a little more often and I think I will be happy.