Blade positioning 2

[Kaitsu]

I believe I uploaded picture with too high resolution. At least something went wrong and it jammed my previous thread related to same topic. Sorry! If moderator sees this post, you can delete my previous blade positioning thread which is not working. Back to original topic...

Would you position blade like this?

Blades has been mounted in specialized figure skate store which has been on market for very long time. No any customer specific fitting test were made, so positioning is presenting purely skate tech opinion about the correct positioning. Both blades were positioned similarly.

Message what I want highlight is following: No matter if you agree or disagree the blade positioning, do not trust blindly even to specialized figure skate shops. Even they would been 100 years on market, they probably have several employees or summer trainees. Clearly they all are not so skilled, but they are still used also to these technical tasks. Another reason for mistakes is rush. Time is money for them. During the years I have seen so many clear mistakes which has been made by specialized figure skate stores or skate techs. Most of them would be very easy to recognize even by eye or simple measurements.

[tstop4me]

The blade positions could be appropriate for a skater with sufficiently strong supination on both feet.  Do you know whether she does or not?

[Kaitsu]

What I know, skater does not have supination or pronation issues. At least blades are not mounted like this to compensate such an issues. However with these skates she has suffered about the issues where skates are causing similar problems as over pronation. Example picture of pronation in following link

https://tigardlife.com/featured/the-problem-with-over-pronation/

[Query]

The blade positions could be appropriate for a skater with sufficiently strong supination on both feet.

Both??. Only the left boot is shown.

Kaitsu, the meaning of your response was lost in translation.

Are you saying she has the form of pronation your link shows when she skates or lands jumps?

If you haven't seen her skate, maybe her coach would know. The coach might also know if there was a reason for the offset.

[tstop4me]

Both??. Only the left boot is shown.

See Kaitsu's original post:

Both blades were positioned similarly.

Kaitsu, the meaning of your response was lost in translation.

Are you saying she has the form of pronation your link shows when she skates or lands jumps?

If you haven't seen her skate, maybe her coach would know. The coach might also know if there was a reason for the offset.

I understood the response just fine.  Kaitsu said that when the skater is not wearing the skates, she does not show signs of over pronation or over supination.  But when she is wearing the skates, she does show signs of over pronation.  That would be consistent with neutral feet and the mounting as shown.

[Query]

Unfortunately the original post isn't available now, AFAICT.

What you said is a possible interpretation of what he said. I merely asked for a clarification.

The puzzling thing is that the blade was mounted fairly well in other respects, aside from a slight screw misalignment. So maybe at the time it was mounted, it made sense.

Some coaches push their students to try crossovers & the first few jumps, before they feel comfortable on outside edges. I don't like that approach - but I didn't learn as a child.)

Or: I started skating to strengthen my ankles because I had frequent ankle sprains, especially in the pronation direction. Maybe such a mount would have helped. But later it might have become a problem.

Or: Perhaps at the time of the mount, the sideways tilt of the footbed didn't match the feet (another problem I had), but that was later corrected.

So for several reasons, the blades could have been mounted this way on purpose, but should perhaps be changed now. Perhaps the coach would know. Or not.

[Kaitsu]

Unfortunately the original post isn't available now, AFAICT.

What you said is a possible interpretation of what he said. I merely asked for a clarification.

As I jammed my first thread with header Blade positioning, I did open new thread with header Blade positioning 2. First thread does not include any additional information compared to this second thread. So Query, please forget that first thread.

Have you ever considered any other hobby than skating to strengthen your ankles? I could recommend ballet for you. You clearly does have artistic soul and I could easily imagine that you could be good on that.

 Tstop4me interpretation was 100% correct. He did describe the issue more clearly what I did. Thank you for that! 

[tstop4me]

Unfortunately the original post isn't available now, AFAICT.

The original post I was referring to, and from which I copied the excerpt, is Post #1 in this thread.  So it is still available:

I believe I uploaded picture with too high resolution. At least something went wrong and it jammed my previous thread related to same topic. Sorry! If moderator sees this post, you can delete my previous blade positioning thread which is not working. Back to original topic...

Would you position blade like this?

Blades has been mounted in specialized figure skate store which has been on market for very long time. No any customer specific fitting test were made, so positioning is presenting purely skate tech opinion about the correct positioning. Both blades were positioned similarly.

Message what I want highlight is following: No matter if you agree or disagree the blade positioning, do not trust blindly even to specialized figure skate shops. Even they would been 100 years on market, they probably have several employees or summer trainees. Clearly they all are not so skilled, but they are still used also to these technical tasks. Another reason for mistakes is rush. Time is money for them. During the years I have seen so many clear mistakes which has been made by specialized figure skate stores or skate techs. Most of them would be very easy to recognize even by eye or simple measurements.

<<Emphasis added.>>  Yes, there was a photo of only one boot.  But note the passage I highlighted.

[Query]

Katisu: thanks for the ballet suggestion. I tried one introductory lesson. I'm not nearly flexible enough, nor are my muscles nearly strong enough. At about age 65 I could not hope to overcome that now, and maybe never could have overcome the flexibility issues, because a day after stretching, my muscles return to the prior length. Though I admit figure skating isn't an ideal sport either for me.

It's been many years since I injured an ankle. I'm mostly not worried about it any more.


Back to topic: We've all seen boots and blades that were totally messed up by a skate tech, who wasn't trained well enough, or who was pushed to work too fast to do a good job. I suspect most of us who try to do our own work do so because we had bad experiences with one or more skate techs or pro shops.

Two more crazy ideas: did the skater buy the boots used and pre-mounted? If the blades were mounted for someone else, that might explain it. Or did she mount them herself, and not know how?

[supersharp]

I think the main point here, that Kaitsu stated in the initial post #2 of his message, is:

Do not blindly trust any shop, even if the shop has a great reputation and even if the shop has been in business for 100 years.

I completely agree. Trust your eyes and your comparisons to tools like straight-edges and squares.  The blade you skate on will perform based on how well it matches these tools.  The psychological boost of getting your skates from a very prestigious shop is going to fade fast if they are set up wrong.

Our club gets a lot of skates from a single shop where there is a podiatrist on staff.  She has good recommendations in general and has been an asset for discussing which brands might fit which kinds of feet.  Most of what they send looks pretty good...but on several occasions, skates have appeared that are pre-mounted or temporary-mounted and are either located incorrectly or are mounted on a curve. 

It can be a very delicate conversation when you have to tell parents (or adult skaters) that you think that their skates were not set up properly by the prestigious shop.  I recently had a skater who had skated with on a collegiate team for a year and got new skates at the end of the school year.  The boot selection was done with the assistance of a very highly-regarded person and the skates and blades were procured from a very prestigious shop.  She asked me to sharpen them when the rink re-opened in August this year.  One blade was mounted on a curve and both blades were way off level.  This skater has had me as her tech up until college and had finished Senior Moves in the Field before she went to college, so I feel like I have a fair amount of evidence that her historic blade alignment had been working well for her... So I sharpened them, making the edges level, and adjusted the curved blade but didn't mention it because I wanted to see if she noticed, and I knew we were both going to be on the same freestyle session when I gave her the skates back.  Five minutes and she came over and said "whatever you did, these feel so much better, thank you!".  I told her that one blade had been mounted curved and that the edges were not level and she said she really tries to hold off on having them sharpened at college as long as possible because she can tell they end up sharper but less level.  It makes me feel bad for her whole synchro team.

[Loops]

Wow.  But I understand Supersharp's skater's dilemma.  It's hard to find a tech you trust, to get things mounted, and sharpened correctly.

I have always bought skates from the same person, who is now retired.  When I was young, his shop was not in a rink, so when blades were mounted he'd do a standard aligment, with only the temporary screws in.  Then we'd go back and skate at our rinks, with our coaches paying attention.  Sometimes little adjustments were necessary, in my experience, most often not.  But that was all taken care of, before the additional screws were added in. 

Sometime before I came back to skating, my tech moved his shop into a rink and tested alignment on the spot.  It made a huge difference in the mounting.  I have always assumed that this testing phase, either in front of tech or away from tech was standard practice.

So, I do have to ask, these skates that are pictured, is that the final alignment, after tests were done with the skater?  Is that an initial alignment but based on the techs' knowledge and familiarity with the skater (I also note there are two different boot brands involved.... I guess that would also affect alignment with seams and things?) It sounds like this is the case in Kaitsu's original situation.  Are there examples of when a well-reputed tech has just slapped the blades on there added all the screws and called it good?  That thought is scarry.

[Isk8NYC]

Original topic discussion has been removed. - Moderator

[Query]

Even many of the best respected skate techs have sometimes manage shops where not all the techs were equally good, or which were not at rink facilities. I've noticed that too. Each also limits what they do. E.g., some won't do the types of boot and blade modifications that I've learned work best for me. Skaters also sometimes get used to the specific ways a given professional does things, and only perform best with their work.

Many people like me who have far less experience and knowledge can adjust our blades and boots better, for ourselves, than the most respected professionals, because we learn what we specifically need.  But we can't all learn to do everything for ourselves, just like we can't all repair our own vehicles, build and repair our own homes, or meet our own medical needs.

Plus, athletes constantly train their bodies to work differently, which changes what they need over time.

With all these issues, it isn't surprising that even the best professionals in any field, can't please everyone.

There is always some trial and error guesswork. All professionals need feedback on what you want and need. If you don't provide that feedback, to even the best skate tech, coach, physical trainer, teacher, home builder, etc., can't do as well. Of course some professionals don't encourage feedback, and therefore please fewer customers, and never get better.

After Kaitsu moves the blades to the center, I hope he explains why, and asks her to tell him if she still wants something changed.

[Kaitsu]

So, I do have to ask, these skates that are pictured, is that the final alignment, after tests were done with the skater?

I am not sure if skate tech asked skater opinion if blades should be mounted with temporary screws only or directly to the final stage. Blades has however been mounted just like you can see on the picture without any tests or discussion how blades are wanted to be positioned. Skater lives 280 miles from this store, so I am quite sure skate tech has not met this skater before.

Blades mounting directly with all screws is quite normal practice in here. Personally I ask every time from the owner if they want blades to be mounted just temporary screws or do I put them on to the final stage, they all say that blades can be mounted to final stage without any tests. I believe there is few reasons for this...
* They believe that I measure very accurately blades positioning, but they do not understand that I cannot know if that is the correct place for the skater.
* I am not skilled enough to see when they skate, if blade should be moved or not
* Coaches seems not either have this skill
* If skate tech or coach are not able to advice skaters, you can be quite sure that skaters are not either able to say if blades should be moved or not. They just trust that skate tech know what he/she is doing and possible problems must be weaknesses of the skater.

I did tell to skates owner parent that I would not position blade like they are currently positioned. Her parent said that when skater is on ice, she´s ankles are looking like she would have over pronation. Even coach has noted it, but I guess they have not though that problem could be come from the blade mounting, which has been done by the skate shop which has long experience. Her parent decided that blades are not re-positioned as she has now used to skate with current positioning. Means that they were too scared to change positioning, even all signs are indicating that they are wrongly positioned. Problem is fixed on next skates.

I also note there are two different boot brands involved.

I didn't follow what you mean. I have talked all the time about same pair of skates, even picture shows just left skate in different view angles.

[Query]

I hope the skater doesn't hurt herself skating with bent ankles.

And I hope other skaters and parents don't think you do bad work because she skates with bent ankles.

[Loops]

I didn't follow what you mean. I have talked all the time about same pair of skates, even picture shows just left skate in different view angles.

That's my mistake.  The angle on the second and third pictures to me looked like the soles were completely different (as in a Jackson sole vs an Edea sole).  Now that you state that- I see that it's just the lighting and the different angle creating that effect.