skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Leif on September 25, 2021, 08:20:35 AM
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I wear hockey skates, and I struggle with three turns. My coach (a figure skater) wants me to start backwards three turns, but I don’t feel I have even mastered forwards outsides. A young figure skater told me she picked up forwards outside three turns quickly. Has anyone here experience with both kinds of skates, and if so, are three turns much harder in hockey skates? I can do them but not confidently, or reproducibly. I’m also learning forwards and backwards power pulls, and they seem much easier.
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This makes sense to me - the rocker on hockey skates (how curved the blade is if you're looking at the skate from the side) is much flatter than the rocker on figure skates. This means on figure skates there's less of the blade that's making contact with the ice, which makes turning on one foot easier than it is on hockey skates. Are you specifically meaning to learn figure skating skills, or is your actual goal something else? If your plan is to learn figure skating skills, you really need figure skates - if you find three turns difficult, you literally won't be able to learn/do spins at all.
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One of our student coaches in the past was a Junior-ranked pairs skater. He had competed at USA nationals before he enrolled at the university. He was older than most undergraduates.
To give you an idea of his skating skill, here's a still shot showing a flying transition from a back spin to a front sit spin...
(https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/phil_fly1_sml.jpg)
Because he was male, management wanted him to teach young hockey skaters. He dutifully donned hockey skates to run up and down the ice with them.
Once between lessons, I asked him to try spins on hockey skates. He did it, and I recorded it on video. There's always a three-turn just before a spin starts, and you can see it in this video if you can play old .AVI files.
https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/phil_hockey_spin.avi (https://www.afterness.com/skating/images/phil_hockey_spin.avi)
You can see that he doesn't approach the entry steps, including the abbreviated three turn into the spin, with the power and abandon that he'd otherwise do on figure skates. I recall watching him do figure skating three turn patterns on them. He did them out of curiosity just to see if he could.
He was an amazing skater, and could switch from hockey skates to figure skates and back again to give lessons to various students.
Frankly, three-turns are difficult to learn even on proper equipment. Being an adult multiplies the degree of difficulty to learn them.
The forward outsides are the easiest to learn. Back threes take a lot more time.
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He was an amazing skater, and could switch from hockey skates to figure skates and back again to give lessons to various students.
Word of caution. There is a substantial difference between an expert figure skater adapting to hockey skates and performing various maneuvers on hockey skates, and a less experienced hockey skater learning various maneuvers on hockey skates the first time around. I know two young women who are advanced freestylists. They also wow me with what they can do on hockey skates, including spins and jumps.
It has become trendy in my area for hockey players to get at least some lessons from figure skaters. One of the young women is a figure skating coach who also started coaching hockey players. A macho hockey coach advised her that if she wanted to be taken seriously she should ditch the white figure skates and get hockey skates (at least when she's coaching hockey players). She did, and she ended up coaching more hockey players than figure skaters.
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Thanks Bill, very interesting. I have once seen someone spin on hockey skates, and I’m sure he was a figure skater, beautifully controlled. I am reassured to hear that 3 turns are difficult to learn, more practice then.
This makes sense to me - the rocker on hockey skates (how curved the blade is if you're looking at the skate from the side) is much flatter than the rocker on figure skates. This means on figure skates there's less of the blade that's making contact with the ice, which makes turning on one foot easier than it is on hockey skates. Are you specifically meaning to learn figure skating skills, or is your actual goal something else? If your plan is to learn figure skating skills, you really need figure skates - if you find three turns difficult, you literally won't be able to learn/do spins at all.
Thanks. Yes hockey skates don’t have a rocker, usually a primary curve, typically about 11 foot radius, and then sharp curves at the ends.
I am a hockey skater, but I take lessons with a figure skating coach because figure skaters understand edges very well, and good use of edges means more efficient skating and better control. My endurance has rocketed, as has my agility, thanks to my coach. If you watch Hockey Canada videos on YouTube, you will see hockey players doing power pulls, cross rolls and other drills. I believe these exercises improve balance and edge control as well as strengthen various muscles in the legs and ankles. The NHL used to employ figure skaters to improve their players skating, perhaps they niw have dedicated power skating coaches, I’m not sure. Someone told me that when I skate my ankles are very flexible.
And I have to admit that I enjoy skating, doing backwards power pulls is great fun. I draw the line at jumps, due to my knees.
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Word of caution. There is a substantial difference between an expert figure skater adapting to hockey skates and performing various maneuvers on hockey skates, and a less experienced hockey skater learning various maneuvers on hockey skates the first time around. I know two young women who are advanced freestylists. They also wow me with what they can do on hockey skates, including spins and jumps.
It has become trendy in my area for hockey players to get at least some lessons from figure skaters. One of the young women is a figure skating coach who also started coaching hockey players. A macho hockey coach advised her that if she wanted to be taken seriously she should ditch the white figure skates and get hockey skates (at least when she's coaching hockey players). She did, and she ended up coaching more hockey players than figure skaters.
It isn’t trendy here, unfortunately. I think money is the issue, £25 (about $30) per half hour is not trivial. And they prefer to play, not do drills.
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>Yes hockey skates don’t have a rocker, usually a primary curve, typically about 11 foot radius, and then sharp curves at the ends.
"Rocker" means different things to different people. To most of us, "rocker" is lengthwise curvature at the bottom of the blade, and is thus similar to "rocker" on boats and many other things. But to other people, it is the transition point(s) (which I was taught to call "sweet spot(s)") where that curvature changes.
Hockey blades are often described as having both. But there are many, many such transition points (in terms of how the curvature was shaped by CAG brand machines, at least at one point in time), as you go from fairly flat (sometimes completely flat) in the center, to very curved at the ends - and sometimes the curvature instead varies continuously. That in theory means you can turn more quickly and unexpectedly (hockey players try to suddenly move in a way their opponents can't guess ahead of time) on hockey skates, but that you can better meet the aesthetic standards of figure skating on figure skates.
I was once told by the head of a local Youth Hockey organizer that he told young hockey skaters to use a particular figure skating coach to learn edges and turns because she was less than half as expensive as the high end hockey coach (I think an ex-NHL hockey player) who taught somewhat similar things - but that he told the most advanced hockey players to hire the ex-pro players. Presumably there is a big difference between the the technique you use if you want to meet the aesthetic standards of figure skating vs and the aggressive needs of hockey players.
In turn, the figure skating coach in question told me that she had mostly moved from teaching ice dance to teaching hockey players, because they paid her more. The truth is, to make a living, many coaches teach both, and some also teach speed skating and/or off-ice skating and other sports.
If you watch NHL players in hockey games, it is very obvious that they turn very effectively on hockey skates. I forget the exact word, but hockey players sometimes use a different word to describe a more rapid version of "3-turns".
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It isn’t trendy here, unfortunately. I think money is the issue, £25 (about $30) per half hour is not trivial. And they prefer to play, not do drills.
Where I live, that's at the low end of the scale; i.e., for newbie figure skate coaches.
Coincidentally, a couple of weeks ago, I had a discussion with an adult male who is relatively new to freestyle. But he told me when he was younger, he used to play hockey (don't know at what level). He thought the whole notion of (active) hockey players learning figure skating maneuvers was total BS. His opinion was that in a real game, there's no time for fancy footwork: you're limited by split-second decisions when opposing players are out to clobber you. But one figure skating director I know was very proud in 2019 when three college hockey players she had coached (prior to college and even during college when they came home during breaks) got drafted into the NHL.
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.... But he told me when he was younger, he used to play hockey (don't know at what level). He thought the whole notion of (active) hockey players learning figure skating maneuvers was total BS. His opinion was that in a real game, there's no time for fancy footwork: you're limited by split-second decisions when opposing players are out to clobber you.
Interesting. Here, many of the pro hockey players enroll their kids (hopeful future hockey players) in figure skating. I often sat next to one of these pro-hockey dads when our kids were in LTS together. At the elite end, they know who has the better skating skills, and those that are serious are interested in what Figure skating has to offer. It's not about the fancy foot work, but the edge control and the speed/power that can generate. It all translates into more goals down the line!
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Interesting. Here, many of the pro hockey players enroll their kids (hopeful future hockey players) in figure skating. I often sat next to one of these pro-hockey dads when our kids were in LTS together. At the elite end, they know who has the better skating skills, and those that are serious are interested in what Figure skating has to offer. It's not about the fancy foot work, but the edge control and the speed/power that can generate. It all translates into more goals down the line!
One doctor I go to has two daughters who were competitive figure skaters. When they applied to college, they were recruited by coaches for women's hockey teams. The coaches told them specifically that trained figure skaters make excellent defensemen because figure skaters are equally adept skating backwards and forwards.
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Query: My use of terminology was awful, what I meant to say is that figure skates have a spin rocker just behind the toe pick, which aids spins and 3 turns. Hockey skates don’t have that. My understanding is that rocker refers to an area with a given radius of curvature, or curvatures. Thus my inline skates have no rocker ie all wheels touch the ground together.
Hockey skates can be profiled, with multiple regions each with their own curvature. Mine are stock, I think most of the blade has just one radius of curvature.
tstop4me: In my opinion the adult male you spoke to is ill informed. I’m only a low level rec player, but fancy footwork has helped me get goals. A friend told me I once did a very fancy move during play, I didn’t even notice, it was just natural. Good footwork allows a player to get round opponants, or throw them off. NHL players are very skilled skaters, albeit not as technically advanced as elite figure skaters. They have a subset of their skills, which they adapt for hockey rather than elegance.
Regarding edge control, my coach taught me to skate with longer more efficient strides, and to rip the ice less. A lot of rec hockey players love to rip the ice, making crunching sounds, but that wastes energy. Proper edge control means quieter skating, using the energy to move faster or further rather than breaking up the ice and creating friction. So if you waste less energy, you tire less quickly, and have more energy when you need it, to chase down an opponant, or make that break with the puck for the opposition zone. If you have correct posture and longer strides, you get more efficient skating.
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One doctor I go to has two daughters who were competitive figure skaters. When they applied to college, they were recruited by coaches for women's hockey teams. The coaches told them specifically that trained figure skaters make excellent defensemen because figure skaters are equally adept skating backwards and forwards.
True! Except for me. I actually prefer skating backwards.
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True! Except for me. I actually prefer skating backwards.
Ah, a kindred spirit! So do I. Other skaters at my rink often remark how weird they think that is.
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Skating backwards is so much more natural than forward. The knees are out of your way.
Leif--I teach a lot of hockey skaters in our adult skating program. They learn forward 3-turns much faster than back 3-turns. I think understanding how a forward 3-turn feels really helps you figure out how to do a backward one, so I would start with the forward turns.
I teach the 3 turns to both hockey and rec/figure skaters the same way. The progression is just a demonstration of how a good 2-ft turn is the basis for all 3-turns. I would guess from your earlier discussion, you are probably completely solid on 2-ft turns. Here is my questionable attempt to explain it in writing:
- Practice a solid 2-foot turn on a gentle curve, with both feet turning at the same time, using a gentle down-up-down unweighting at the cusp of the turn to lift your heels a tiny bit and get the turn to happen underneath the balls of your feet instead of the middle of your foot.
- Use the comfortable balance of the 2-ft turn to help train your upper body to help set up and control the turn: as you approach the cusp of the turn, rotate your upper body in the direction of the turn while keeping your feet gently curving, creating a twist that will develop cross-body tension (for example, if you are turning CCW, you will feel the tension from your left shoulder down to your right hip as you twist your body to the left and keep your feet going along the gentle curve).
- right at the cusp of the turn, quickly steer your toes to point sideways, lift your heels slightly, and bring them into the line of travel while twisting the body to the right to stop your rotation (the "check" that figure skaters are always talking about). This body motion is important. It can become subtle and hidden later when you are playing, but it really helps to do it purposefully during the development phase.
- Once this is all happening smoothly, pick a foot to focus on, for example your left foot going CCW, which is going to be on the LFO edge. Do the same 2-ft turn with the same body mechanics, but put 70% of your weight on the left foot. Don't change the way you use your body! That's where it usually falls apart. Once that feels good, put 80%, 90%, almost none, and then actually zero weight on the right foot. That's all there is to a 3-turn--it's a one-footed 2-ft turn (oxymoron, of course, haha).
- The timing of releasing the tension that is holding your toes pointing one way while your body starts to turn is what gives you the ability to snap through the turn to move into the checked position.
- NOTE 1: skaters who "walk" through their 2-ft turns by shifting their weight from one foot (R to L going CCW and vice versa) to the other will have a hard time learning a 3-turn because their 2-ft turns are more of a mohawk-like motion. But maybe mohawks will be easier to learn?
- NOTE 2: when I was learning 3-turns, I kept asking the coaches "check against what?" because it seemed pretty obvious that you need to hold one body part in tension (or compression) against another body part to create this check. I was pretty sure this was Newtonian mechanics at work, not some kind of quantum mechanics. Not yet, anyway. I never really got an answer that satisfied me, but eventually I came to the conclusion that when you do a beautiful 3-turn, the check is actually coming from the tension of holding the blade along one pathway with your skating hip trying to stay strongly over the blade, but your body moving into a twisted position. When you release the blade--snap--your heel can swing around in response to that release of tension, and if you reset your body into a checked position as your blade resets and your hip stays strong over the line of travel, you can control the rotation and continue on the nice gentle curve. And if this comment makes no sense, I apologize. Much easier to demonstrate and discuss on ice!
Good luck!
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