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Author Topic: Advice on New Boots/ Blades  (Read 1478 times)

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Offline tstop4me

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2017, 07:53:31 AM »

Now though, the problem is with skate alignment haha! I am working with the blade sharpener man to get the proper alignment for the boots before permanent mounting. A question though... Is there supposed to be gap? I researched online and it seems like yeah, there would be for temporary mounted blades/ new boots. But on my right boot (landing leg :sweat) the gap seems to be more pronounced - especially on the heel. There seem to be a bigger gap...

But when I stand on it, that big gap actually become small.

Currently, the front of the skates has got 3 screws mounted in, and given that small gap, I think no problem. The gap at the heel concerns me though. Currently, 3 temp screws. I think with the addition of the fourth screw, the gap will also be smaller. But as you see, some of the screws aren't like going all the way in... I think the blade should be able to hold my weight doing jumps (~53 kgs) but I still feel anxious :D

You said you ordered online.  Who did the mounting?  You?  Or did you bring it to a local tech?  Your sharpening guy?  If so, is he experienced with Edeas?  Compared to traditional boots, Edeas have non-leather soles that are thinner, and they also use custom screws (use the ones supplied by Edea, not the ones supplied by the blade manufacturer).  I only have experience mounting blades on traditional leather soles with traditional sheet metal screws.  I've had the same problem and know several methods on how to fix it on traditional boots.  But some I'm not sure would work on Edeas.

If you used a skate tech, point out your concern, and have him fix it.  From the photo, it appears that part (not all) of the problem is that the rear screw (or screws) on the heel plate (the ones that do not have the heads screwed down flush to the heel plate) are not properly aligned and tightened.  It also looks like the angle between the heel plate and sole plate on the blade is not an ideal match to the angle between the heel and sole on your boot (not surprising since there is no industry standard).


[If you did it yourself, then here's what I would do.  You probably don't need to be concerned about the minor gap at the sole plate.  But the gap in the heel plate is too large.  You can use washers of suitable thickness (stacked washers if needed) to provide better contact between the heel plate and heel.  You may need to plug and re-drill the screw holes properly.  Edea sells special plugs.]

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2017, 10:13:03 AM »
In particular, where are your blades scratchy, when you skate backwards - in the toe or in the tail?

If they are scratchy in the tails, then, indeed, your heels are relatively higher (which, in skates, due to the limited contact area, means the tails are forced down lower, assuming your foot attitude remains about the same), and what I said is correct.

But if they are scratch in the toe pick, then your heels are relatively lower (which means the toe pick is forced down).

The reason I worry it may be the latter is because you say you have to sit back (when skating backwards in your new boots). If your heels are relatively higher, that would make the problem of scratching in the tail worse. If that is the case, you want to add more shim to the back of your blade, to create a higher heel, not to the front, to create a higher toe.

I don't get this explanation.  When I switched from my Riedell Royals to my Jackson Elites, the heel pitch on the Jackson was definitely greater than on the Riedell.  A greater heel pitch shifts my weight forward, towards the toepick.  When skating backwards, I need to lean backwards more to compensate, to shift my weight back, away from the toepick.  To me, that scenario is consistent and logical.

What has eluded me, as well as others I've talked to who have experienced this, is why there is a much more pronounced effect when skating backwards than forwards.  I realize that you skate on a different portion of the rocker when skating backwards than forwards, but I would expect a higher heel pitch to also require compensation for forward strokes too, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Offline DressmakingMomma

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »
My daughter had two pairs of Edeas and there was never a gap in the temp or permanent mounting - her blades were gold seals. That doesn't seem right to me, have you checked with Edea?

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2017, 12:55:28 PM »
The gap means that the mounting should have been shimmed. The blade mounting plates should fit snugly against the boot even with no pressure from screws.

Even if you use screws to tighten it to the point where there is no gap, that is warping the blade - which places extra stresses on the blade, so it may eventually break, and which, in some cases, may cause the runner (the long thin thing that touches the ice) to warp too.

Either your tech didn't know what to do, or he/she abbreviated the process.

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 02:02:34 PM »
When I switched from my Riedell Royals to my Jackson Elites, the heel pitch on the Jackson was definitely greater than on the Riedell.  A greater heel pitch shifts my weight forward, towards the toepick.  When skating backwards, I need to lean backwards more to compensate, to shift my weight back, away from the toepick.  To me, that scenario is consistent and logical.

And yet that can't be completely correct. I know you know enough physics to get this. The heel pitch does not "force" your weight forwards - because of newton's 3rd law (or its equivalent in torques), that would push the heel of the skate downwards, rolling the blade along the blade's rocker curve. But for a static skater (no internal motion), balance only occurs if the center of gravity is over the base of support - i.e., that which touches the ice - a very small spot, a few mm wide, by a few more mm long. Your weight must therefore be further back to be in balance. It's very simple physics. When you are in static balance over such a small point of contact, there can be no net torque, and nothing is forced in that way.

So I think you would still find that shimming the back of the blade would solve that problem - even if I am wrong and the average pitch is higher on the new boots.

If you don't believe me, try making the correction temporarally INSIDE the boot, which is very easy and fast to do. Place something under the heel of the insole. I bet it pushes the back of the boot down a little, forcing your balance back. Of course, if the boot is very snug, there may not be room...

Also, the profile of the footbed is not a constant pitch - it is a much more complex 2D curve. Different parts of your foot (which is reshaped by the footbed and your weight on it in complex ways) apply a torque to the boot when you are not in balance, until you are, though of course that gets more complicated with dynamic balance, when your body configuration is changing, or you are rolling forward or back. So, the average pitch, or the pitch at some point doesn't tell the whole story - all that matters is the net torques that roll the blade until the net torque is zero - which on a skate, creates the effective heel height, which matters more than the real heel height. (OTOH, when I got my Klingbeils, the real heel height, and the bend at the ball they created to balance it, was so great that it hurt my feet to be in the boots. That mattered too, but was a seperate issue. I hate high heels.) In other words, when I said the (effective) heel is higher or lower, that is a great simplification. I am more concerned with how to correct it than with an actual measurement of heel height.

There are other explanations - e.g., the place the blade is mounted, and the way your foot projects vertically into the ice. I will start with the assumption you are using exactly the same blades (and not just a similar pair of blades) - otherwise this whole discussion is meaningless. E.g.

1. Assume that the blade is mounted further forwards - relative to the vertical projection of your foot. Then it is easier for the toe pick to touch. This can easily occur if you mount the blade according to the position of the outsole, rather than relative to the projected foot.

or

2. Assume that the vertical projection of the foot is shorter, taking into account not just the average slant, but the full profile of your foot inside the boot, which bends your foot in various ways, especially at the ball. In principle, a shorter blade might have solved the problem.

or

3. The shape of the new boot allows your foot to slide forward and back a bit. So, when skating forwards, you slide forwards, which means you balance farther forwards along the rocker then before, pushing the toe pick into the ice.

or

4. A very possible  explanation would be that there is a sharper bend at the ball of the foot in the new boots - or even worse, the bend is too far forwards, and bends your toes instead of the ball of your foot. That exerts a net torque fowards of the balance point, until the balance point rolls forwards, pushing the toe pick into the ice.

or

5. Maybe the arch of the new boots is higher or lower, changing the shape of your foot in such a way as to cause the differing balance. For example, a lower arch would cause your foot to collapse more under weight, pushing the toes a little further forwards, and maybe the heel a little further back - and vice versa for a higher arch.

or

6. Maybe you can come up with other similar potential differences.

What has eluded me, as well as others I've talked to who have experienced this, is why there is a much more pronounced effect when skating backwards than forwards.  I realize that you skate on a different portion of the rocker when skating backwards than forwards, but I would expect a higher heel pitch to also require compensation for forward strokes too, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Which could mean something is wrong with your theory.

It might also mean that you have learned to compensate for the toe pick when skating forwards, but not backwards. E.g., maybe you unconsciously flex your ankles, raising the toes, when skating forwards.

Another possibility, which does mess up my static skater theory, is that you might roll the pitch of your foot from the back to the front as you skate forwards - and you have unscouncsiously learned to stop the roll before the toe pick touches. Maybe you adapted that very quickly to the new boot.

In contrast, when you skate backwards, maybe you have not had to start that reversed roll (from back to forwards - or maybe you don't roll when skating backwards) at a different point. But with the new boots you need to.

Or - maybe your heel fits more or less snugly in the new boots, so the back of the foot doessn't press against the back of the boot the same way.

Or - when you skate backwards, your weight on the medial arch of your foot is greater, and it collapses more (this may vary by personal anatomy) - pushing the toes further forwards.

There are so many variables, it doesn't really matter. What matters is what you can do to correct it. If you are happy with changing the way you skate, fine, as it sounds like. If you want to use an equipment approach, fine too. I believe my shimming approach is still sound. But you would have to test it to see.

Offline fantasyfen

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2017, 05:29:55 AM »
Ok guys,
The gap issue is actually solved. :)

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2017, 06:03:03 PM »
Ok guys,
The gap issue is actually solved. :)

That's good news.  Care to share details of the root cause and the fix?  "Enquiring minds want to know."  ;)