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Author Topic: Advice on New Boots/ Blades  (Read 1222 times)

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Offline fantasyfen

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Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« on: January 20, 2017, 10:00:04 AM »
Hi all, I'm an adult skater, and I've been skating for almost a year (since Feb 2016) using Riedell 229. The support on the right boot is really waning now. If I press on the ankle it's giving in already (not completely, but sufficient to need double lacing already...)

It wasn't very obvious previously, but now that I'm working on loop, flip and back scratch spins (using a lot of my right leg), that wierd feeling in my right boot is getting more and more obvious.

The problem with my current pair is somehow it's around 1.5 cm larger than my foot size, especially for my right foot. Now my foot kind of slide a bit inside the right boot. When I tried it (first pair), I thought it was ok, but didn't know it expanded so much. Or it didn't fit in the first place. Also, I feel like the blade on the right boot isn't mounted very straight.

So now I want to get a new pair because it's simply frustrating to skate on the current pair.

For blades I'm looking at getting MK Pro/ MK Pro Revolution. I searched online, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of info about the revolution blades. I know I'm kind of getting the Rev blades for it's look, but how does it really perform? Also, there is a parabolic blade vs normal blades, does the parabolic really affect edging? If so, by how much?

Also for boots, I'm looking for Edea Chorus, any review of how tough or durable the boots are? Riedell hurts my feet (could be because of the wrong size also) so I hope Edea could be better. But living far away in a country where the only shop carrying several brands aren't quite reliable, I have to resort to online purchase. Perhaps there is some recommendation of figure skating stores in USA or Canada that's good ? :) I heard Cyclone Taylor is good but I'm not sure. Hoping for some help :) thanks all

Offline AgnesNitt

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 06:02:03 PM »
If you want to buy boots go ahead. If you want to get some more use try this:
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-insole-trick-with-too-large-figure.html

Also, if you have other problems, here's a list of fit solutions for boots:
http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2014/08/super-fitting-your-boot.html
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Offline nicklaszlo

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 07:52:24 PM »
It sounds like your current boots are well past their failure point and never fit right.

Boots that are too big can cause injury.

You need to visit an expert fitter.  It sounds like whoever fit and mounted your current pair did a bad job.

Insist on stiff boots.  You're an adult and you are making very rapid progress.  You need something stiffer than what they usually sell.

Offline fantasyfen

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 03:43:38 AM »
Hi Nicklaszio. Yes. I think it never fit properly since the start. And yes, for now I need to be careful skating with the current pair until the new pair arrives. Now I am doing foot measurement to contact sellers online. Would honestly rather go down to a shop for fitting. But that means at least another $300 just for flight and I have no time to go.

I'll ask my coach when we meet...

Offline tstop4me

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2017, 06:13:42 AM »
Hi Nicklaszio. Yes. I think it never fit properly since the start. And yes, for now I need to be careful skating with the current pair until the new pair arrives. Now I am doing foot measurement to contact sellers online. Would honestly rather go down to a shop for fitting. But that means at least another $300 just for flight and I have no time to go.

I'll ask my coach when we meet...

Under your stated constraints, then, you should make sure that someone else (that is, not yourself) takes measurements and tracings of your feet.  Perhaps your coach will help?  Also, note that different boot manufacturers specify different measurement and tracing procedures; so, once you have decided on a particular manufacturer and model, be sure to follow that manufacturer's procedures.  These procedures are often available on manufacturers' websites; or email customer support.

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2017, 03:19:14 PM »
If you order slightly large, you can adjust to match your boots to your feet by making yourself custom insoles. My current method is to trace the old insoles on closed cell carpet foam (use open cell carpet foam instead if your feet get hot and sweaty), then cut 3-dimensionally until everything is confortably snug and uniform everywhere it needs to be. (Also, cut it the original tracing wide if you need extra material to fill space on the sides of the feet.) Also, a heat mold helps a lot, if possible. I made it all work on skates 1 - 1.5 sizes too big, though that is overkill and too heavy.

If you order too small, look to pain in the feet that isn't always soluable.

I'll send you a private message with a link to my boot modification page.

Offline ChristyRN

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 08:30:47 PM »
If you order slightly large, you can adjust to match your boots to your feet by making yourself custom insoles.
If your skates are too big, your blades are in the wrong place and you learn really bad habits that take years to learn once  they become habit.

Don't advise someone to order skates too big.

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Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 09:48:23 PM »
If your skates are too big, your blades are in the wrong place and you learn really bad habits that take years to learn once  they become habit.

Don't advise someone to order skates too big.

Yes and no.

I would claim that for most people, blades are most likely put in the wrong place by a merely average skill skate tech anyway, unless you get properly measured fully customized skates, with an outsole positioned and sized to match the skater's particular anatomy.

I did of course assume that someone willing to take their own measurements is going to take care to mount the blade right for their feet, and not pay any attention to low end skate tech mounting advice. I'm also assuming that when she cuts the insoles, she will do it right. The link I sent her has fairly detailed advice on that.

As near as I can tell, for most people, figure skate boots are ideally designed so as to make the heel especially snug at the back, and to place the part of the footbed+insole that bends upwards match the ball of the foot. (I don't quite understand all the reasons for the upwards bend in the footbed+insole shape, but it does help prevent the foot from sliding forwards, especially if the boot isn't fully customized in shape.) They should also be fairly snug almost everywhere, 3-dimensionally, except at the front and sides of the toes, where most people need a little extra space to keep the feet healthy, and they have a little space ahead and in front of the ankle, so they can freely point and flex the ankle. And you might need to vary the insole shape and stiffness at various points, or pay someone really good to create custom orthotics.

Figure skate blades, in turn, are designed to be mounted so as to put a particular part of the blade (roughly where the sweet spot is) underneath the ball of the foot. They are designed to be sized so that the tail of the blade interacts well with the back of the foot - i.e., you don't keep crossing your tail and tripping, but neither does the back of the blade drag when you skate. And you want the toe pick to interact well with the front of your foot - though that is too many parameters to match well, given that there is only one variable in standard blade sizing - length. (Though other variables can to some extent be chosen by varying blade model.) (High end skate techs can reshape the blade to move the sweet spot to make things work better, but the o.p. probably doesn't have one, since she is doing her own measurements.)

This is all quite complicated and is beyond the skill level of the merely average skate tech. You need very complicated measurements to get it all right, and to know what foot shape assumptions the specific boot maker uses.

So, typical advice given to low end skate techs, based on the boot makers conception of the typical foot (which incidentally varies, brand to brand) involves very simple measurements to pick the size. Low end skate techs might size boots either by the total length, or by the total width. And they are told to always place the front of the mounting plate wherever the front of the outsole is - which is again based on the boot maker's conception of typical feet. Low end skate techs then choose the blade length so the back of the mounting plate roughly matches wherever the back of the outsole happens to be. (I think they rarely size the blade to go beyond the back of the outsole - more likely they are told to pick a length that comes as close as possible to matching the back of the outsole, without going past it.)

But everything can go wrong when you design and measure for the "typical foot", rather than a specific foot.

The problem is that the relative position of the everything within the foot varies a lot, person-to-person, depending on things like the relative lengths of your toes compared to your feet, and the way the back of the heel relates to the back of the upper foot. What is more, your left foot and right foot are probably sized and proportioned differently. I.E., most people don't have "typical" feet. And that doesn't even begin to cover the overall side-to-side and forward-to-back tilt of the bottom of your feet, the amount of arch (at each of the several major arches in your feet) or the degree to which your feet collapse asymmetrically when you put weight on them - which is particularly important to figure skating, because once you set an edge for a lobe, you are often "supposed to" hold that degree of edge, so the curvature of the lobe doesn't vary. (There are other complications that might matter too, involving the rest of the body, like how your knees and hips move, but I don't understand how that all works.)

So yes - ordering a little large will probably position - and size - the blades wrong. So, probably will ordering the boots snug. The best thing is for her to figure out where to mount blades to match her feet after she gets the boots. If you leave a little space, you have room to play, if you are willing to play and experiment. Hopefully, she already has blades whose length and sweet spot positions works well with her feet and body.

Offline amy1984

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2017, 02:40:58 PM »
In the US I'd recommend Northern Ice and Dance and in Canada I'd recommend The Figure Skating Boutique.  With either of them I'd call them to order so you can make sure you're measuring your feet properly.  I've had good online success with Northern Ice and Dance, and in person the fitters at the figure skating boutique are very good so I'd assume they'd be able to give you a recommendation over phone as to what would be appropriate.  I will warn you that both of these places are probably going to take your order and then go order from their supplier so you'll be looking at a bit of a wait for your skates.  The good thing about these stores is that they have comprehensive websites so you can have a look at things before you call - prices, features, etc.  I haven't used Cyclone Taylor myself but it also has a really good reputation.

I see a lot of adults go into Edea and for the price point, I don't know if it's worth it, especially at the lower levels.  You can get something that'll fit your needs and be less expensive in almost any other brand.  If you have the money and have your heart set, go for it.  But don't be dazzled by a high price and pretty skates.  Not Edea, but I used to skate in Risport which is pricey when compared to the Jackson's I now use.  Honestly, to me, at my level, it doesn't matter so I go with Jackson and save some money.  There are some people out there who have legit reasons for spending more.  Or maybe they just like the skates.  But just don't think you NEED to shell out for something like Edea.  Though I have to admit the Edea boots are super cool looking.  Also with Edea, you'd need someone to fit them to you once you got them.  If you don't have someone qualified in your area, I'd skip it for something that will fit out of the box.

Offline Loops

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2017, 04:01:50 AM »
Fantasyfen, I'm in a similar situation to you, albeit not as drastic.  Skating isn't nearly as popular in France as it is in the US, so skate shops are few and far between (a weekend trip for me regardless of where I go), and good fitters....well, lets just say I have yet to find one.  Nearly everyone I know orders their boots online, and nearly everyone I know has boots that are a little too big (but I'm sure are comfortable).

I had to go to Paris, to find a shop and basically act as my own fitter.  I had skated before though, and knew what I needed in terms of fit and support.  I came out with skates with the best possible fit for me out of the box, but have had to be stretched out, and laced oddly in the front to be wearable for long periods.  You have already had one pair of skates, so have at least some idea of what you need fit-wise.

I agree with other posters that you should be open to all brands of skates. Unless you have a certified Edea fitter near you, I would be wary of them.  They are made out of a different material to standard leather skates.  So to get them to fit properly you need to have someone who knows how to reshape them, it isn't done using standard methods.  Maybe in Singapore you have someone like that, but I'd be skeptical.

Try the stores Amy1984 mentioned.  Rainbo in Chicago also has a good reputation.  You might also be able to work directly with the manufacturers and send them a drawing/tracing of your foot.  I suspect Riedell would be open to this, and Jackson might be.  The people at Riedell are really nice, so I wouldn't hesitate to at least call and ask.  They'll tell you if they can't do it, or if they can, what measurements are the most helpful.  My guess is the people at Jackson are the same way. Kinzies Closet has detailed instructions on measuring for several different brands of skates, they do ship worldwide and may well be experienced in helping to fit from a distance.  I haven't worked with them though.  But be aware, it is difficult to measure your own feet correctly.

Good luck sorting this out!!!!!  One thing to consider, if you can stick with non-heatmoldable skates, I wonder if they might be easier for a regular cobbler to stretch out.  My own skates are heatmoldable, and no-one here could get them to budge on a press (we didn't know we had to heat up the leather).  Perhaps someone else can comment?

Offline Jf12

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2017, 10:45:04 AM »
I don't think what query says is a good argument for bigger boots.  It could be an argument for if you are between two blade sizes to go with the shorter blade so they can be placed correctly.  The problem with going bigger on the boot for purposes of blade mounting more exactly will give you problems for the toe jumps, toe runs, etc.

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2017, 12:31:18 PM »
... nearly everyone I know has boots that are a little too big (but I'm sure are comfortable).

I want to clarify....their boots being too big is NOT a good thing.  Boots that are too long, as others have said will place the blade wrong relative to your foot.  In addition to the toepick, this also affects your spinning, if the spin rocker is too far forward (ask ChristyRN how she knows).  If they're too wide (which is the more case with the other ladies at my rink) the boots are harder to control since your forefoot, or worse your heel wiggles.  I think you've already experienced this.

But it's a really tough call, ESPECIALLY when ordering online.  Skates should be snug enough that some might perceive it as too tight (i.e. the ladies at my rink).  But remember that your foot will swell as you skate, so something that is nice and snug at the shop could be excruciating after a bit on the ice.  Buying skates sucks, even when you can try them on.  I really would try to find a fitter that is willing to at least try to work with you from a distance via foot tracings and measurements.

I think Query's advice comes from years of trying to make boots fit right.  No one can go out and buy new boots on a whim.  I'm not sure he's recommending to intentionally buy boots that are the wrong size....just trying to help if they turn out to be "slightly too big". I personally don't know whether its better to err on the side of too small or too large.  I always go too narrow, to fit my heels, and it's terrible getting the fronts to fit right.  Too large scares me too.  I hate buying skates, even when I can go to my US fitter whom I trust. :-\

Offline riley876

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 02:28:54 PM »
I want to clarify....their boots being too big is NOT a good thing.  Boots that are too long, as others have said will place the blade wrong relative to your foot.

Sometimes longer boots are part of an acceptable compromise.

e.g. all my skates are 5mm too long.  i.e. typically 1/2 size too big.   For the simple reason than I need to be able to fit a massive cork wedge orthotic in them (to deal my 3 sigma tibial torsion and foot varus).   The extra length typically isn't a problem, a small piece of wadded up fabric fills the gap nicely.   I don't seem to have any problems with this setup being loose in the heel either.   

Blades can be moved to suit if really necessary.  But I suspect I wouldn't even be able to detect a few mm fore-aft misalignment.   

Though I accept probably others here could feel it,  but I do wonder what difference would it make anyway?   So your balance point on spins is slightly different?  So what?  Can't you just slightly adjust your ankles/knees/body lean to suit?   Would you REALLY be running out of biomechanical range of motion if you (re)-learned to spin with a few mm different spin rocker location?   And if not, what's the problem with doing so?   Hell, artistic roller skaters spin on their heels!   I suspect if a mere few mm is stuffing someone up, they need a better coach, rather than better boots.

Offline Backtotheice

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 04:28:29 PM »
I am about the same skill level as you. I have always skated in Riedells (when I was a teen and also in my early 30s) and this past summer I needed new boots (because my 20 year old Silver Star boots really did give me an ankle injury). I thought I wanted Edeas too, because they looked cool and I read a paper touting the benefit of synthetic boots over leather . I obsessed over what size to get, and ordered a pair of Chorus. I hated them the moment I put them on. The ankle support felt much lower than what I was used to with my old Silver Stars. I felt like they were too short in the ankle and I didn't like only 3 lacing hooks. So I sent them back (yay for Rainbos great return policy) and ended up with a pair of Riedell 255 Motion skates. They have worked out really well so far. My only thing is that I ordered a wide, and I think I really didn't need the wide. When I wear tights my foot seems to slip around a little inside. I just this week have started skating barefoot and that seems to work better. For blade I got the Eclipse Aurora blade which I like alot too.

An article discussing the paper http://thelantern.com/2014/02/ohio-state-researchers-find-figure-skaters-could-reduce-injuries-with-different-boots/

Most boot manufacturers have really detailed instructions on how to fit boots. I also found the comparison on kinziecloset helpful https://www.kinziescloset.com/skate-comparison-guide.html

Good luck!

Offline ChristyRN

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 08:40:28 PM »
I want to clarify....their boots being too big is NOT a good thing.  Boots that are too long, as others have said will place the blade wrong relative to your foot.  In addition to the toepick, this also affects your spinning, if the spin rocker is too far forward (ask ChristyRN how she knows).  If they're too wide (which is the more case with the other ladies at my rink) the boots are harder to control since your forefoot, or worse your heel wiggles.  I think you've already experienced this.


Ten years in too long boots! I still haven't unlearned some things.


Though I accept probably others here could feel it,  but I do wonder what difference would it make anyway?   So your balance point on spins is slightly different?  So what?  Can't you just slightly adjust your ankles/knees/body lean to suit?   Would you REALLY be running out of biomechanical range of motion if you (re)-learned to spin with a few mm different spin rocker location?   And if not, what's the problem with doing so?   Hell, artistic roller skaters spin on their heels!   I suspect if a mere few mm is stuffing someone up, they need a better coach, rather than better boots.

Ten years in boots with the rocker too far forward had me trying to find the balance point with the rocker under my toes. As soon as I'd try to go on the ball of my foot, I'd be on my toe pick. I still haven't relearned this after nearly three years in split-width, shorter boots. I try to spin and as soon as I hook, I'm back up on my toe pick. I can feel myself do it, but by then it's too late to fix it. It's not just a matter of a couple of mm, but of bad habits that are hard to break.
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Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2017, 09:00:44 PM »
I'm not sure he's recommending to intentionally buy boots that are the wrong size....just trying to help if they turn out to be "slightly too big". I personally don't know whether its better to err on the side of too small or too large.  I always go too narrow, to fit my heels, and it's terrible getting the fronts to fit right.  Too large scares me too.  I hate buying skates, even when I can go to my US fitter whom I trust. :-\

(I've also tried to help a number of people whose boots were misfit. Unfortunately, there was a fitter in my area who misfit a lot of expensive custom boots, including mine.)

Anyone would prefer an absolutely perfect fit from day one. But that is unlikely to occur for a newbie self-fitter, working from measurements alone. Even people who order custom boots often have initial fit problems. If you work at it, a LITTLE too big can be fixed. But if any part of the boot is substantially too small, beyond what can be managed by replacing the insoles and doing what leather stretching she can, she will have wasted her money, and have gone through a lot of grief.

Of course, if you aren't willing to learn how to modify the fit of your boots, and to choose and mount your blades in the right place, too big is just as major problem. Not just because of blade placement. It is very hard to skate in big boots, they will break down very quickly, and it is easy to hurt yourself.

Maybe a good compromise would be to measure boots while wearing medium thickness socks. That way you have a margin for error. She can change sock thickness, and/or alter the insoles, and probably make do, even if she gets the measurement silghtly wrong.

Likewise, if she orders one of the higher end plush lining Jackson models (if she has a foot that fits Jacksons well), that will also help adapt a little to a slight misfit. (I'm not sure how to figure out which Jackson models have those plush linings, other than by calling Jackson.) Of course, she will have to lace tight, so the socks don't slip - somewhat less of a problem with very thin socks. (Or stockings, so my female friends claim.)

If she is pretty sure she has the size right, and her feet are pretty standard in terms of shape (e.g., fairly average relative width of heel, midfoot and toes, fairly average toe length relative to foot, fairly average ankle bone shape and position, fairly average upper foot bulk, no significant pronation or supination, etc.), she might get by measuring with thin socks, and will probably need to make no modifications greater than making custom insoles. But she sounds a bit uncertain.

Heat molding is one of the easier modifications to do at home, though not with Edeas, and not if the heat molding temperature for the particular boot model is over about 185 degrees, which is attained by some of the higher power hand-held hair driers. It helps a lot. Even some skate pro shops that aren't super-expert might be able to manage a pretty good heat mold ($40 - $60??), if they have the right oven. (Your home kitchen oven is probably not well calibrated or regulated, is probably not a convection oven, and might destroy your boots if misused.)

If  you can't find a shoe repair shop willing to touch figure skates, a good downhill ski shop might try, and they might have the right tools.

Offline fantasyfen

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 04:55:01 AM »
Hi everyone, thanks for the replies.
I actually asked a couple of online shops (giving them the measurements) and tried my coach's Edeas, as well as my friend's. They wear 245 and 250. And I've ordered mine online. I really pray/ finger-crossed that it will be fine.

I attach the photos of my current boot size. Pardon the ugly feet, but yeah. That. was how big the skates was. I think I may have a hard time adapting to my new Edeas when it arrives. Tripping over toepick. Posture modification, turns, spins. gosh... But I'm not too worried :) I am sure I can adapt fast :) better late than never to change to a better fit. I hope.

I wore this boot for one year lol. From learning my LTS to now, doing loop and flip. It gets steadily harder and harder to control my jumps/ attempt to spins, and as one of you mentioned, yeah, it is frustrating to learn on too-big boots. When my coach asked me to "press on the ball" to spin, I always fall backward/ middle of the blade. THat was when i know the skate was too big. I never realise it before that instance unfortunately. :(

Yeah, there really isn't any reliable shop selling edeas here. in fact there is only ONE shop. which steadily sells too big boots. So, no choice but to order online. THe skates arrive 7th Feb. I will update on the forum if it's a good fit.

Offline davincisop

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 10:29:43 AM »
FYI 245 and 250 are considered about the same size in the Edeas. 250 just allows for a little more stretching width-wise in the toe box. :)

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2017, 01:06:30 AM »
While the skate is a little longer than your foot, based on the picture of your foot with the insoles, I think they may be slightly too thin, AFAICT. In fact, it looks like the boots may have bent your pinky-toes, which can be unhealthy, so people say.

Of course, we really can't tell from these pictures - it is hard to guess from just the insoles how the rest of the boot fits your feet.

I'm not medically trained, but there are little bumps on the outsides of your feet, a little behind the toes, that might be the result of an overly tight fit - you'd have to ask a doctor or other medically trained individual about that. I think that sort of thing is often seen as a serious medical problem, that people remove surgically, because that kind of inflammation can create bone in inappropriate places.

So you might want to consult with someone medical before using boots that are even thinner at the bottom.

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2017, 12:08:13 PM »
Let me add a little more:

There doesn't seem to be much left of your toenails. I suppose that could be from a couple things.

Your feet my be constantly sliding forwards and back, and the top of the boot is rubbing against the top of your toes, or the front of your feet are smashing into the front of the boot.

The top of the boot may be too tight over the top of your toes. That is bad.

If there are callouses on top of your toes (I'm not trained, and cannot tell from your pictures, but it sort of looks that way, though that might just be shadows or something else), that strongly suggests that sliding occurs. Another indication would be callouses on the bottoms of your feet.

Of course, none of this has to be from your skates. This and the other things on your feet could be from the other boots and shoes that you wear or have worn.

The ideal, AFAICT, is that your boots and shoes shouldn't affect your feet long-term in any way. (Exception: It is possible that medically trained people can correct for malformations in the feet by playing with appropriate shoe and boot modifications, but that is way beyond what most of us are competent to figure out how to do safely for ourselves.)

It indeed looks as though, based on the amount of space in front of your toes, the default mounting positions based only on the outsoles will indeed place the blade sweet spot and toe pick too far forwards - but only when the heel is properly back against the back of the boot. That is because your toes are somewhat short relative to the rest of your feet. I'm not saying they are unhealthily or unnaturally short or that you should be in any way self-conscious about your feet - only that they are slightly shorter than average in proportion. I.E., I'm saying that the typical boot maker probably assumes that you have proportionately longer toes, unless you get full custom boots.

But if the foot keeps sliding forwards and back, the actual position of the sweet spot and toe pick relative to your foot will keep changing, and it will be hard to skate in a controlled manner. If there is such a slide, it is very important to stop it.

I think sliding forward and back should be corrected some place other than in front of your feet - by the full 3 dimensional shape of the boot (e.g., by raising the foot with insole thickness a little behind your toes, or by the upwards bend in the footbed that should be at the ball of the foot, or by sticking moleskin against the uppers just ahead of the foot). Unfortunately, because the toe length is different from what the bootmaker assumed, the upwards bend in the footbed is somewhere else. That may eventually make your feet quite sore, because the boot tries to bend your feet in the wrong place, and feet aren't designed to be bent that way much anywhere else. You may be able to correct this by changing your insole shape to make the bend be at the ball of your foot.

Remember again that I'm not medically trained. I'm guessing. There are people trained to look at feet - podiatrists, orthopedic surgeons, some PTs, some nurses, who could give a much more accurate read on your feet.


Offline fantasyfen

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2017, 11:08:12 AM »
Ok, so my new skates arrived and it feels so much better than my too-large Riedells. Edea Chorus. So far so good. Just that now I need to adjust my backward skating, because apparently Edea has higher heels, it doesn't look much, but it somewhat affects backward skating (making things more scratchy), and that means I have to form a new habit of "sitting back" more for backward skating. We'll see how it goes.

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2017, 01:47:06 PM »
Or you could shim your blades - i.e., add a little cloth tape (I like cloth athletic tape) between the blade and the sole of your boot in the front. (If that means your blade plates have to bend to conform without pressure to the sole of your boot, add a little tape assymetrically to both - e.g., making the tape thicker in the back of each contact area. If your boots are white, it probably looks better to shim using white tape.)

That will effectively increase the height of your toe above the ice, to bring it closer to the level of your heels.


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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »
Ok, so my new skates arrived and it feels so much better than my too-large Riedells. Edea Chorus. So far so good. Just that now I need to adjust my backward skating, because apparently Edea has higher heels, it doesn't look much, but it somewhat affects backward skating (making things more scratchy), and that means I have to form a new habit of "sitting back" more for backward skating. We'll see how it goes.

Yeah, I switched from an old pair of Riedell Royals to Jackson Elites, which have a higher heel pitch than the Riedells.   When I first skated backwards on the Jacksons, I tended to pitch up on my toes.  Took a while to lean back harder consistently, but eventually got there.  My skate tech told me the Edeas have even a higher heel pitch than the Jacksons, though from the outside they appear about the same ... the Edeas have a higher heel pitch on the insole.

Offline Query

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2017, 12:23:56 AM »
Or you could shim your blades - i.e., add a little cloth tape (I like cloth athletic tape) between the blade and the sole of your boot in the front....

Oops, I may have made a big mistake, because I didn't think about what you said, and realize you might not really have (relatively) higher heels, but might have the opposite problem.

I'm so Sorry! :(

In particular, where are your blades scratchy, when you skate backwards - in the toe or in the tail?

If they are scratchy in the tails, then, indeed, your heels are relatively higher (which, in skates, due to the limited contact area, means the tails are forced down lower, assuming your foot attitude remains about the same), and what I said is correct.

But if they are scratch in the toe pick, then your heels are relatively lower (which means the toe pick is forced down).

The reason I worry it may be the latter is because you say you have to sit back (when skating backwards in your new boots). If your heels are relatively higher, that would make the problem of scratching in the tail worse. If that is the case, you want to add more shim to the back of your blade, to create a higher heel, not to the front, to create a higher toe.

The confusion may exist because ice skates don't behave like regular athletic shoes, so the feet inside them don't behave like the feet inside regular athletic shoes. Regular shoes have a bigger contact area - in effect, foot orientation and shape is more or less forced to maximize shoe contact area - more or less the entire bottom of the shoe touches. But because ice skates only touch a tiny portion of an edge, which is free to roll in any direction, foot orientation remains almost constant, and it is the boot and blade whose orientation changes. (In addition, skate boots are stiff enough that boot and foot shape stays constant too.)

I hope that is clear.

(For the same reason, orthotics, designed for normal shoes, especially external orthotics that are placed on the bottom of the shoe, often don't work right in ice skates, because the only part of an external orthotic that would influence the boot or foot is the part that the mounting plate touches - if it touches it at all - and any orthotic in or on a skate boot influences the orientation of the blade, but applies no torque to influence the orientation of the foot. The physics and how it affects your anatomy for ice skates and normal athletic shoes are very different, often leading to mistakes by medical personnel who are unfamiliar with ice skates, according to some journal articles.) (Note, however, that some internal orthotics are only intended to modify the shape of the boot match that of the foot - e.g., to match the height of the arches - and that still works right in skates, at least if there is enough space inside the skate boot to fit the orthotic.)


Offline fantasyfen

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Re: Advice on New Boots/ Blades
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2017, 06:08:23 AM »
Thanks tstop4me and Query for your responses. You know what? Magic happened this morning when I took my Chorus out for the 2nd test drive. Suddenly I can do my backward crossovers (still kind of awkwardly, but it's ok) and other thing, and it no longer feel wierd around the heel/ ankle/ not "too" scratchy anymore. The toepicks still scratch a bit when I forgot about my body position going backwards, but really Edea is comfy from the second time you go on ice? wow. My previous Riedell took me around 2 months plus.

Now though, the problem is with skate alignment haha! I am working with the blade sharpener man to get the proper alignment for the boots before permanent mounting. A question though... Is there supposed to be gap? I researched online and it seems like yeah, there would be for temporary mounted blades/ new boots. But on my right boot (landing leg :sweat) the gap seems to be more pronounced - especially on the heel. There seem to be a bigger gap...

But when I stand on it, that big gap actually become small.

Currently, the front of the skates has got 3 screws mounted in, and given that small gap, I think no problem. The gap at the heel concerns me though. Currently, 3 temp screws. I think with the addition of the fourth screw, the gap will also be smaller. But as you see, some of the screws aren't like going all the way in... I think the blade should be able to hold my weight doing jumps (~53 kgs) but I still feel anxious :D