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On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Resurfaced on January 22, 2017, 04:16:32 PM

Title: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 22, 2017, 04:16:32 PM
Graduating to dance blades from all-around blades (Coronation Ace/MK Pro type). What should I expect? Any cautions, warnings, or helpful hints would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: nicklaszlo on January 22, 2017, 05:39:14 PM
I once heard a coach say that if you switch to a blade with a shorter heel, it can be helpful to switch to a boot with a higher heel.  No personal experience, though.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on January 22, 2017, 05:44:11 PM
I have only been skating a year so I am not sure how valuable my experience will be to you. I just switched to dance blades for a variety of different reasons. IME, people have different reasons for switching but I know several skaters who have skated both freestyle and dance tests in freestyle blades with no problem. Anyway, I switched because 1) My ultimate goal is dance and my coach encouraged me to make that my next blade. 2) My previous blades were very beginner MK single stars, a bit slow I discovered. 3) My soles are still in good enough shape to hold a new blade. 4) I have been skating more and more with my husband practicing  moves together and he decided on dance blades with his new pair of custom skates, I thought it might help us keep out of each other's way.

So my blade is fairly minor as far as dance blades go, the Coronation Dance.  There are a few differences, yes the blade is shorter but that just seems to make certian moves a bit easier, less blade clicking, also my fear of falling over backwards never materialized. . The rocker is more pronounced and easier to find, a little harder to control, I have to check my body more strongly to prevent over rotation on turns. The toe pick is placed higher on the blade, it is still a fairly strong toe pick, but it is more out of the way. The ROH is 7/16  from 1/2" on my other blades and feels more narrow, it has been more challenging to hold my outside edges, requires me to really flex my ankle and press into the ice. Overall they are just faster, my speed is much faster with less effort.

Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 22, 2017, 08:36:06 PM
The rocker is more pronounced and easier to find, a little harder to control, I have to check my body more strongly to prevent over rotation on turns.

Checking strongly is a good habit to grow, especially in dance.

…feels more narrow, it has been more challenging to hold my outside edges, requires me to really flex my ankle and press into the ice.

Flexing and pressing are also good habits to grow. The holding the edge part is a little worrisome, though I had heard the narrowness of the blade made turns easier (faster to switch from edge to edge, I assume).

Overall… my speed is much faster with less effort.

This is good news! Sort of. Still afraid of speed across the ice… gotta get over that. But that's another post for another day. Thanks, Ethereal.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 22, 2017, 08:43:21 PM
I once heard a coach say that if you switch to a blade with a shorter heel, it can be helpful to switch to a boot with a higher heel.  No personal experience, though.

Not in the market for new boots yet, unfortunately, but will keep that in mind for down the road. Being vertically challenged, I wouldn't mind some extra height, though! ;)
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on January 22, 2017, 10:09:03 PM
I moved from Coronation Ace to MK Dance. It was a huge change. But wow - The MK Dance were so much faster, probably because the working part of the blade is thinner. And I stopped tripping on the back of my blades when my teachers said that "neat feet" required the free foot to sometimes be placed as close to the back of the skating foot as possible. (Other aspects - thin blades change edges a bit more quickly, and for whatever reasons Dance blades are easier to twizzle on, harder to spin on.) I loved the MK Dance blades. And most of the really high end ice dancers use them, though it may be partly because the MK/Wilson manufacturer gives away blades to some of the best skaters. But, alas, MK Dance aren't cheap.

BTW, in theory thin blades are harder to balance. I didn't notice that on the MK Dance - but I have noticed it a lot on speed skates, which are even thinner. You may also notice that MK Dance are a little higher off the ice - maybe to give you room to edge more without scraping the sides of the boots as much, especially on the deeply edged underpushes that many ice dancers love. Again, the extra height might be a slight balance issue, but the balance issue will likely disappear with time.

For economic reasons I switched to Ultima Dance - which was an even bigger change, because Ultima shapes the front of blades a lot different than MK and Wilson -  the spin rocker and toe pick position will be quite different from Wilson Coronation Ace, and I think from the MK Pro, they I never used the latter blade. Unless you are very adaptable, you might want to stay away from Ultima. I'm not sure, but I think Eclipse Dance might be roughly comparable to MK Dance, but are cheaper. Though none of the dance blades that I know of are particularly cheap. I do know that some of my ice dance teachers chose to dance on freestyle blades, so it is possible.

You can simulate higher heels by shimming the mounts, adding something like tape between the rear mounting plate and the heel, but that gets a little complicated, because you don't want to warp the blade, by forcing the plates to bend from having all the pressure at the back of each mount point - so you may need less tape width at the very back, and to also add a little tape to the front of the front plate mount. High heels or similarly shimmed mounts have some side effects, like moving the toe pick further from the ice, and possibly changing your comfortable balance points. BTW, I found high heels very painful, and had to have my dance boots modified to drop them, but I am a guy.

MK (and Wilson) blades are available with parabolic side honing (slightly thinner in the middle, advantage uncertain, but complicates sharpening a lot), and Revolution mounts (lighter, cushions jump impacts). My best guess is that both are mostly a waste of money for an ice dancer, but I could be wrong.

Unfortunately I haven't tried enough different types of Dance blade to give you a full blade comparison. Plus, I'm not that great a skater.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 23, 2017, 10:27:48 AM
Apologies for this thread being in the wrong section—should be in "The Pro Shop”—it's my first post, so don't hit.

What terrific info! Thanks so much, Query.

I moved from Coronation Ace to MK Dance. It was a huge change. But wow - The MK Dance were so much faster

Excited to hear this—especially that your first reaction was "wow"! (BTW if I continually use the "quote" function, this post will be three pages long, so forgive me if I just use bold type.)

neat feet —Never thought about it, but yes, shorter blades would help with that!

Dance blades are easier to twizzle on, harder to spin on —Love to work on spins, but concentrating on dance—nice to be pre-warned, though.

in theory thin blades are harder to balance. I didn't notice that on the MK Dance… —Interesting.

…but I have noticed it a lot on speed skates, which are even thinner —You are brave!

higher off the ice… edge more without scraping the sides of the boots —Yes, I've seen the scraped boots of an elite ice dancer, and totally get this.

For economic reasons I switched to Ultima Dance… rocker and toe pick position will be quite different… might want to stay away —My coach doesn't like her Ultimas, mostly because the toe pick position doesn't warn her soon enough when she's too far forward, and advised me against them also.

Eclipse Dance might be roughly comparable to MK Dance, but are cheaper —Lots. This is what I'm switching to. My MK Pros are essentially done sharpening-wise, and Coach suggested Eclipse Dance to help my turns, so I went for it. Just starting Bronze dances, so not sure I'm technically proficient enough yet to really appreciate the nuances, but hoping the advantages will help.

some of my ice dance teachers chose to dance on freestyle blades —Also true, and also know of this firsthand. There's a young teen at my rink who is a phenomenal ice dancer, and at Silver she's still on FS blades. (But she is doing doubles as well.)

simulate higher heels by shimming the mounts —Interesting, but sounds way too tricky. I'd rather get new boots if it becomes an issue.

parabolic side honing… Revolution mounts… mostly a waste of money —Agreed, particularly at my level. Though I was way over-bladed in (side-honed) Phantoms when I skated freestyle, and loved them.

Unfortunately I haven't tried enough different types of Dance blade to give you a full blade comparison. Plus, I'm not that great a skater.

What you wrote was SO helpful, Query. No apologies needed! With that much of a knowledge base, I'm guessing you're selling yourself way short on the ability issue… ;) Thanks again!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on January 24, 2017, 09:35:18 PM
Coach suggested Eclipse Dance to help my turns, so I went for it.

If you trust your coach, it is probably a good idea to follow his or her advice, unless and until it gets you into trouble. That's part of what you pay him/her for. Ignore me. I've only passed Preliminary. (Could probably pass pre-bronze if I worked at it, but can't find a partner), but that is about it. And I make plenty of mistakes.

Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 25, 2017, 05:04:27 AM
If you trust your coach, it is probably a good idea to follow his or her advice, unless and until it gets you into trouble. That's part of what you pay him/her for. Ignore me. I've only passed Preliminary. (Could probably pass pre-bronze if I worked at it, but can't find a partner), but that is about it. And I make plenty of mistakes.

I do trust my coach, completely—just didn't want to pelt her with lots of extra questions. Lesson time is too short as it is! Plus forewarned is forearmed… thought if I knew what to expect—especially from people who may have made the switch more recently—it might ease the transition, which is currently equal parts excitement and trepidation. Trying to get up to speed to compete this year, and the clock is ticking… no minutes to spare for adjusting to new equipment. Need to hit the ground running, or the ice gliding, or whatever it is.

Don't knock passing Preliminary. The Evil Step Behinds (as AgnesNitt calls them) do in a lot of less hardy souls. And you will totally get Pre-Bronze… keep after it… the Swing Dance is a blast. I'm not expecting to find a partner either, I just test with my coach. It would be more fun with a guy, but no male ice dancers in my area, so what do you do. Actually I think it's easier to test with a pro—that way you don't have TWO befuddled brains trying to keep straight what is going on.

Don't forget that mistakes only show you're learning something you didn't know how to do yesterday. And this sport is HARD!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: davincisop on January 26, 2017, 10:28:28 AM
Thanks for making this thread! I'm currently working on the bronze dances (testing Hickory in March, hopefully) and am making the transition to dance boots and blades due to dance being my main focus now. I still have freestyle skates for moves in the field and skating around for fun with friends, but the plan is to skate mostly in my dance boots.

I ordered them on December 20 so they should be in any day now and can't wait to see how different the blades feel from standard freestyle blades. So far I'm glad to hear the transitions seem to be positive.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on January 27, 2017, 08:06:07 PM
Thanks for making this thread! I'm currently working on the bronze dances (testing Hickory in March, hopefully) and am making the transition to dance boots and blades due to dance being my main focus now. I still have freestyle skates for moves in the field and skating around for fun with friends, but the plan is to skate mostly in my dance boots.

I ordered them on December 20 so they should be in any day now and can't wait to see how different the blades feel from standard freestyle blades. So far I'm glad to hear the transitions seedem to be positive.

Can you please keep us posted (if you want you can even message me) about how you feel the dance boots compare to your freestyle? I, as I wrote above, have just switched to dance blades, but I kept my freestyle Silver Stars. They are still in great condition, fit me like a glove, and I do intend to keep them as long as possible. That said, I would like my next pair of boots to be dance boots. When we went to have my husband custom fitted at Harlick recently, we did not get dance boots per say, but got options that lend to easier dance moves like a cut back ankle and flex notch, in addition to the dance blades of course. I am going to ask my hubby if he notices much difference, but we are just starting out. I would love to hear a more experienced person's interpretation of a dance boot switch, and how much it actually benefits your skating. As I had mentioned in my earlier post, I have some friends who have done higher level dance testing in freestyle boots and blades, one just finally switched to the Edea dance and says she never realized how limited her toe pointing was in the old boots. Please share your experience as well when you make your switch....l would love to hear it,
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: dkd on January 27, 2017, 09:05:03 PM
I've got Teri Dances on the way. It's so hard to pick between the different dance blades - do I get something less expensive but not as high end, or something really nice and really expensive? I guess we'll see. I'll post on here as well once my new boots come.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on January 28, 2017, 09:22:37 AM
I have switched to dance boots (risport dance) I have mixed feelings. I love love LOVE the toe point I get out of them. And TBH that's a deal breaker for me. I do wish mine were higher on the sides....I don't have the control to keep my ankles where I want them with the low cut sides.

I keep thinking I might go back to freestyle boots then cut the back down. One of my coaches did this on her skates. But hopefully I am years away from new boots. It is an option though, if necessary.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Jenna on January 28, 2017, 12:10:26 PM
I have switched to dance boots (risport dance) I have mixed feelings. I love love LOVE the toe point I get out of them. And TBH that's a deal breaker for me. I do wish mine were higher on the sides....I don't have the control to keep my ankles where I want them with the low cut sides.

That's my problem with dance boots.  Great toe point, but my ankles just seem to flop over no matter what I did.  I want to eventually try them again, but I may try a different brand. 
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on January 30, 2017, 05:12:35 AM
That's my problem with dance boots.  Great toe point, but my ankles just seem to flop over no matter what I did.  I want to eventually try them again, but I may try a different brand.

Glad to know I'm not the only one!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: AgnesNitt on January 30, 2017, 08:09:05 AM
I tried Jackson dance boots, but after a few months the padding got broken in, and they felt too big. This was a long time ago and part of this may have been my skill level  I might try some of the new fitting skills I've learned since then to see if I can get them to fit better.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on January 30, 2017, 09:55:55 PM
I have switched to dance boots (risport dance) I have mixed feelings. I love love LOVE the toe point I get out of them. And TBH that's a deal breaker for me. I do wish mine were higher on the sides....I don't have the control to keep my ankles where I want them with the low cut sides.

I keep thinking I might go back to freestyle boots then cut the back down. One of my coaches did this on her skates. But hopefully I am years away from new boots. It is an option though, if necessary.

So, if one wanted to have the back of a boot cut out like that (and I imagine some padding of some sort placed at the cutback site to keep it from digging in) who would one go to for such a procedure?
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Resurfaced on January 30, 2017, 10:09:25 PM
Well… first time ever on dance blades Friday. Here are my thoughts, for davincisop and anyone else whom it might help…

1) Have your coach with you the first time you step on the ice. The blades are WAY different, and you will need to approach things very slowly and carefully until you build up some confidence (unless, as Lutefisk says, you are on your intergalactic level dances).

2) Remember the difference between driving a car with power steering and one without? (I'm probably dating myself a little here.) Dance blades are total power steering. Coach said it was the difference between driving a Model T and a Ferrari. She is right.

3) These puppies turn like nobody's business. They are MADE for turning. Long curved edges, however… challenging. You will need to tweak your balance and checking to a degree you never thought possible. It's like skating on upright paper clips. SKINNY BLADES! Oh, my word. And you feel every Zamboni slush bump in the ice.

I was reasonably confident after 2 hours on Friday… broke down in sobs on Saturday and was ready to throw them into the river… things got marginally better on Sunday… and today actually ran a Willow Waltz pattern with music (admittedly QUITE poorly). Swing rolls are still scary. So is any footwork on the toes… have to completely re-learn where to plant my toepicks.

Verdict? I will love them—WHEN I learn how to drive them. Right now I'm a pony rider on a thoroughbred.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on January 31, 2017, 05:19:05 AM
So, if one wanted to have the back of a boot cut out like that (and I imagine some padding of some sort placed at the cutback site to keep it from digging in) who would one go to for such a procedure?

I've heard of people going to cobblers for it. You may not get padding through, my coach doesn't have it. Or you could.ask that done as part of an order modification...like when you order split widths, dance scallops, tongue hooks and the like. This is the route will go,since my next boots will be split widths anyway.

I bet your fitter would know and could advise you, if it's something you might do to your current or an older pair of boots. Who knows maybe you'll get lucky and they can even do it yourselves!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: davincisop on January 31, 2017, 11:20:36 AM
I'm eager to get on mine. Anytime I have switched blades (whether it was size from going down in skate sizing or a completely new profile) I take it easy the first few sessions, focusing on pre-pre stuff. So the first day on those dance blades (when I finally get them, the boots were shipped two weeks ago at this point and the pro shop has told me three times now that they'll call me back and update me on where they're at with no updates... getting frustrated with them now because they've told me several different arrival dates with nothing happening) I plan to work on slow stroking, finding where the weight balance is, do some three turns near the wall if I need to just to feel the rocker and move my way up to doing prelim dances, then pre bronze, and then my bronze dances I'm currently on. :)

But I always have to take it slow with a new blade, I am a full time illustrator so I need my hands to make a living and I would rather go backwards in progress for a few sessions than overdo it and risk injury.

**UPDATE** Finally got in touch with someone at the shop I ordered at. Apparently someone was supposed to call me to let me know my boots are backordered. Dance boots won't be in for 8-10 weeks.... Hoping the guy can expedite that because he was just as surprised as I was.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: lutefisk on January 31, 2017, 02:36:08 PM
I know that dance boots and blades are supposed to make turns, toe point, etc. easier but I'm a little hesitant to try dance blades due to the shortness of the tails.  I have this mental picture of me falling backwards off the ends of those short blade tails.  Also I wonder how long it would take to adjust to the increased rocker compared to my trusty free style blades.  Also, I don't like what I'm hearing about the reduction of support by the cut down ice dance boots.   Am I making a mountain out of this or are these concerns real?   At the level which I skate,(preliminary dance), my current boots and blades seem fine.  I'm just starting to think ahead to when my boots wear out and I'll need to replace equipment.   

Second question:  how do synchro blades compare to dance blades?  Do they split the difference between free style and dance blades?  The synchro blades I've seen appear to have bigger picks than dance blades but what are the other differences?
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on February 01, 2017, 12:37:56 AM
So, if one wanted to have the back of a boot cut out like that (and I imagine some padding of some sort placed at the cutback site to keep it from digging in) who would one go to for such a procedure?

You could contact the boot maker. Many of them do very high quality work on their own boots, at quite reasonable cost.

That's my problem with dance boots.  Great toe point, but my ankles just seem to flop over no matter what I did.

Can you analyze why they flop over? In other words, is it a loose fit, which can be changed by adding adhesive foam (e.g., moleskin) to the inside of the boot, or is the boot not stiff enough?

If it isn't stiff enough: try to tie the laces very, very tight. Finally (you won't like this, because it looks awful), you could wrap the top of the boot with duct tape, very tight, after you put on the boot, every time.

Some of my coaches swaid it should be possible to bend dance boots a little sideways by bending your ankle sideways. That lets you create deeper edges. I think the assumption is that you don't need much if any ankle support on dance boots - the only reason they are stiff at all is so you can precisely control the blade placement and orientation.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on February 01, 2017, 04:20:04 AM

Second question:  how do synchro blades compare to dance blades?  Do they split the difference between free style and dance blades?  The synchro blades I've seen appear to have bigger picks than dance blades but what are the other differences?

My vision Synchros were cut off visions, with the drag pick shaved down.  The length didn't bother me at all.  I go over the tails on my now normal length freestyle blades as often as I went over them on the short blades.  I think the first day it was nerve-wracking, but I soon forgot about the length difference.  The shaved down drag pick was much, much more annoying.  Many people have CorDances at my rink.  Toepick wise they look like cut off Aces.  Can't comment on the rocker though. A few have the Ultima Dance.  They also have normal toepicks.  I can't comment on the rockers though. I would love to try slim-line dance blades like the Eclipse that the OP has (or even the MK's), but the lack of a toepick scares the bejeezus out of me.  I'm too much of a free-style skater I guess.  Or a wimp. Probably the latter.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on February 01, 2017, 04:30:03 AM

Can you analyze why they flop over? In other words, is it a loose fit, which can be changed by adding adhesive foam (e.g., moleskin) to the inside of the boot, or is the boot not stiff enough?

If it isn't stiff enough: try to tie the laces very, very tight. Finally (you won't like this, because it looks awful), you could wrap the top of the boot with duct tape, very tight, after you put on the boot, every time.

Some of my coaches swaid it should be possible to bend dance boots a little sideways by bending your ankle sideways. That lets you create deeper edges. I think the assumption is that you don't need much if any ankle support on dance boots - the only reason they are stiff at all is so you can precisely control the blade placement and orientation.

My boots are plenty stiff enough (rated at 65, but I'm sure they're stiffer than that, whatever that number REALLY means anyway). Since they're so short I don't "use" the sides the way I did my old freestyle boots.  But even free boots are cut lower now than they were back when I bought those so.......

For me, It's all about user inefficiency; I'm sure it's a strength and fine-motor control issue.  At one point I was trying to do lots of ballet inspired exercises to strengthen my ankles (think relevés and various types of toe points and ankle circles using a theraband).  Had I stuck with it I might have made some headway on the ankle control thing.  I bet it also has to do with core strength and being able to simply control my body enough to support leaning the ankle that strong. 
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: icedancer on February 01, 2017, 04:37:58 PM
My vision Synchros were cut off visions, with the drag pick shaved down.  The length didn't bother me at all.  I go over the tails on my now normal length freestyle blades as often as I went over them on the short blades.  I think the first day it was nerve-wracking, but I soon forgot about the length difference.  The shaved down drag pick was much, much more annoying.  Many people have CorDances at my rink.  Toepick wise they look like cut off Aces.  Can't comment on the rocker though. A few have the Ultima Dance.  They also have normal toepicks.  I can't comment on the rockers though. I would love to try slim-line dance blades like the Eclipse that the OP has (or even the MK's), but the lack of a toepick scares the bejeezus out of me.  I'm too much of a free-style skater I guess.  Or a wimp. Probably the latter.

Loops on your Vision Synchros did they come like that with the shaved down drag pick (like figure blades or just a little bit?) or had someone done that to them?  Curious.

To the OP I think any time you change blades there is an adjustment.  I usually give myself 6 weeks to get used to any new blade.

My original dance blades were basically a Majestic with the backs cut off - I LOVED them - could spin and do small jumps in them.  They were not slimline.

Then I got the MK dance - I never noticed the slimline honestly but always hated the picks...

Now I am in a blade called Dance 99 - a Wilson blade - VERY short and slimline... nice blade.

I would love to try the Synchro blades - some friends love the Ultima Synchro.

And i have a Teri Dance boot circa 2005 that I have never felt stable in... is it the lateral support?  Is it just that boots are more low-cut now than they were? Is it that I am older now and yes, probably weaker on so many levels?

Good discussion.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on February 01, 2017, 09:56:06 PM
Well… first time ever on dance blades Friday. Here are my thoughts, for davincisop and anyone else whom it might help…

1) Have your coach with you the first time you step on the ice. The blades are WAY different, and you will need to approach things very slowly and carefully until you build up some confidence (unless, as Lutefisk says, you are on your intergalactic level dances).

2) Remember the difference between driving a car with power steering and one without? (I'm probably dating myself a little here.) Dance blades are total power steering. Coach said it was the difference between driving a Model T and a Ferrari. She is right.

3) These puppies turn like nobody's business. They are MADE for turning. Long curved edges, however… challenging. You will need to tweak your balance and checking to a degree you never thought possible. It's like skating on upright paper clips. SKINNY BLADES! Oh, my word. And you feel every Zamboni slush bump in the ice.

I was reasonably confident after 2 hours on Friday… broke down in sobs on Saturday and was ready to throw them into the river… things got marginally better on Sunday… and today actually ran a Willow Waltz pattern with music (admittedly QUITE poorly). Swing rolls are still scary. So is any footwork on the toes… have to completely re-learn where to plant my toepicks.

Verdict? I will love them—WHEN I learn how to drive them. Right now I'm a pony rider on a thoroughbred.

Wow, must be beginner's luck, I did not die switching like I did. One of the reasons I switched only a year into skating is that I knew it was ultimately what I wanted to be on and did not want to get used to the other blades too long. I did not have my coach with me but my hubby held one hand and I held the rail with the other for a lap or so. After that I was on my own.

So, I am about 20 hours into skating on my new blades and today was the best day ever for me. I sat down last week and really tried to figure out what was the most difficult thing with these new blades after being on them about 15 hours and realized that stroking, one foot straight glides and going backwards in general were my major weak spots. The  stroking and glides on the flat are really unnerving due to the narrowness of the blade. I am relieved to hear your take on the "skating on paperclips" and feeling every bump in the ice, now I know I am not insane, that is *exactly* how I felt when skating on the flat of the blade. As for going backwards, crossovers are easier but things like swizzles and slalom are so fast I get a bit panicky.  The other thing is stopping on the sharp narrow blades is taking some practice. My T stops are actually better in them, my snowplow feels off but is getting better.

Today was the best day by far on my new blades, I am finally getting my stroking back where I can extend and point my foot and hold without feeling like I am going to die. Also am getting used to feeling all the irregularity in the ice. Very nice review, thanks, and you are right about the turning as well, as a beginner I actually like that aspect of them.

As for the person that asked about the shorter blades and going over backwards, that is one thing I have never had a problem with, knock wood, I tend to lean too far forward on them because I get panicky about their zippyness.
Title: !
Post by: icedancer on February 01, 2017, 10:13:09 PM
Wow, must be beginner's luck, I did not die switching like I did. One of the reasons I switched only a year into skating is that I knew it was ultimately what I wanted to be on and did not want to get used to the other blades too long. I did not have my coach with me but my hubby held one hand and I held the rail with the other for a lap or so. After that I was on my own.

So, I am about 20 hours into skating on my new blades and today was the best day ever for me. I sat down last week and really tried to figure out what was the most difficult thing with these new blades after being on them about 15 hours and realized that stroking, one foot straight glides and going backwards in general were my major weak spots. The  stroking and glides on the flat are really unnerving due to the narrowness of the blade. I am relieved to hear your take on the "skating on paperclips" and feeling every bump in the ice, now I know I am not insane, that is *exactly* how I felt when skating on the flat of the blade. As for going backwards, crossovers are easier but things like swizzles and slalom are so fast I get a bit panicky.  The other thing is stopping on the sharp narrow blades is taking some practice. My T stops are actually better in them, my snowplow feels off but is getting better.

Today was the best day by far on my new blades, I am finally getting my stroking back where I can extend and point my foot and hold without feeling like I am going to die. Also am getting used to feeling all the irregularity in the ice. Very nice review, thanks, and you are right about the turning as well, as a beginner I actually like that aspect of them.

As for the person that asked about the shorter blades and going over backwards, that is one thing I have never had a problem with, knock wood, I tend to lean too far forward on them because I get panicky about their zippyness.

Ethereal Ice it may be possible that you would do better with a shallower hollow than the one that you have on the blade currently - having too deep of a hollow may explain why you "catch an edge" so easily when you are skating "on flats" - (actually you should never be skating on flats even when you are doing forward stroking) -

It is something to think about.

Glad you are enjoying your blades!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on February 01, 2017, 11:02:41 PM
Second question:  how do synchro blades compare to dance blades?

A lot of people think they are intermediate between freestyle and dance.

The only Synchro blades I've used are the Jackson Ultima blades, specifically Jackson Ultima Matrix 1 Synchro runners. They had toe picks intermediate in length and aggressiveness between Ultima Matrix I Supreme and Ultima Matrix I Dance. But they had tails that were shorter than the tails of both the Dance and Supreme runners - perhaps Ultima thought that Synchro offers more chances for people to step on other skaters' blades, so needs extra short blades?

But Jackson Ultima Matrix 1 Synchro runners are now out of date, because Ultima has dropped both the Matrix I line, and the "Synchro" line. (Jackson Ultima blades (http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/Index.aspx?category=VLrDP7VJmBWQSIPAKIyVdw1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E) now include another Synchro model called "Finesse".)

In addition, the Supreme model is a high end competition model - I can't say how they compare to lower end Ultima freestyle blades. I would assume their toe picks are more aggressive than lower end freestyle blades too.

I admit that isn't very useful, since it is all out of date... Sorry.

I honestly don't think losing your balance to the rear is much of a problem on the Dance or Synchro blades I've tried - unless, perhaps, you are doing a difficult backwards landing jump, or you are a beginner. But I can't speak for everyone.

It's a shame that, with the end of Matrix I, there are no easily interchangeable blade runners in the figure skating world, so you could easily switch between inexpensive blade runners and styles. (Several convenient interchangeable runner systems exist in the hockey world.)
Title: Re: !
Post by: Ethereal Ice on February 02, 2017, 02:22:54 AM
Ethereal Ice it may be possible that you would do better with a shallower hollow than the one that you have on the blade currently - having too deep of a hollow may explain why you "catch an edge" so easily when you are skating "on flats" - (actually you should never be skating on flats even when you are doing forward stroking) -

It is something to think about.

Glad you are enjoying your blades!

Thanks you for the feedback Icedancer. I have considered going back to the 1/2" ROH like I had on my old blades (currently on a 7/16), but I really think my problem lies in the strength and coordination of my ankle and knee bend to really press into the ice to get on the edge. I have (guilty) been kind of riding on the flats going straight right now because I just have not got my outside edges consistent enough. I am working on them on the circle and I am improving, and my inside edges are pretty good. But, for example, I cannot even really get the nerve up to do a swing roll at this point. So, my question is probably dumb, but I thought in general the deeper ROH made catching an edge easier? Does the fact that these blades are more narrow mean that with a shallower ROH I just might feel more comfortable to press into the edge? Sorry to sound so dopey, but I really am considering it and would like your feedback. My coach really wanted me to give the 7/16 a try, but my blade sharpener had mentioned that I may find it a bit too grabby and that he would be happy to change it on my first sharpening and that is coming up, I also wondered if the shallower hollow would make my snowplow a little easier (right now it does feel "grabby", even after 20 hours with them).

The OP on this thread has made me realize that this is really a major change, even for an experienced skater, and if there is something I can do to make the transition easier I think that is only logical to give it a try, especially if I have given the other ROH a fair shot and the particular issues I have could be helped.
Title: Re: !
Post by: nicklaszlo on February 02, 2017, 04:54:45 AM
(actually you should never be skating on flats even when you are doing forward stroking)

What about a straight line lift?
Title: Re: !
Post by: icedancer on February 02, 2017, 11:30:28 AM
What about a straight line lift?

Hmmm. Maybe.
 :D
Title: Re: !
Post by: icedancer on February 02, 2017, 11:38:16 AM
Thanks you for the feedback Icedancer. I have considered going back to the 1/2" ROH like I had on my old blades (currently on a 7/16), but I really think my problem lies in the strength and coordination of my ankle and knee bend to really press into the ice to get on the edge. I have (guilty) been kind of riding on the flats going straight right now because I just have not got my outside edges consistent enough. I am working on them on the circle and I am improving, and my inside edges are pretty good. But, for example, I cannot even really get the nerve up to do a swing roll at this point. So, my question is probably dumb, but I thought in general the deeper ROH made catching an edge easier? Does the fact that these blades are more narrow mean that with a shallower ROH I just might feel more comfortable to press into the edge? Sorry to sound so dopey, but I really am considering it and would like your feedback. My coach really wanted me to give the 7/16 a try, but my blade sharpener had mentioned that I may find it a bit too grabby and that he would be happy to change it on my first sharpening and that is coming up, I also wondered if the shallower hollow would make my snowplow a little easier (right now it does feel "grabby", even after 20 hours with them).

The OP on this thread has made me realize that this is really a major change, even for an experienced skater, and if there is something I can do to make the transition easier I think that is only logical to give it a try, especially if I have given the other ROH a fair shot and the particular issues I have could be helped.

Oh I think the difference here is the lingo - to me, "catch an edge" is another way to say that they are grabby, or sometimes I might use that expression when my slimline (or really any) blade falls into someone else's deep edge groove and puts me off balance.

Because of the slimline, the ROH does not mean the same as it does on the fatter freestyle blade.  So a .5 ROH on a dance blade is actually less shallow than on a freestyle blade.  I can't explain the physics to you but there are people on this list that can - and I have to leave for work but trust me, it is different.  My guess is that your blade guy knows that which is why he said they might be too grabby (and it sounds like they are) -

So being on a good edge is different than catching an edge.

When people do figures they often use a 1 inch or even 1 1/2 inch ROH because it helps them stay on the edge - I think of it this way: when they are on an outside edge, say, they are right over the edge and because of the flatter ROH that other edge is actually further away than it would be if they are in a deeper ROH....

Ooh, this is hard to explain but I think you "catch" my drift!
Title: Re: !
Post by: Ethereal Ice on February 02, 2017, 03:35:01 PM

Ooh, this is hard to explain but I think you "catch" my drift!

I totally catch your drift and thank you for the feedback. I think I will have one more conversation with my coach about it but I am leaning heavily (no pun intended ) in the direction of changing to a half inch.

On another note, I did have another great skate today with my new blades. I am in love with their "turny-ness " They love to turn and it is so much easier for me. As a newbie on those really basic blades I had, I had to work so hard to find that sweet spot, even though I have to check myself more firmly with these, I love having blades that are so easy to turn. I am, overall, very happy I decided to switch.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on February 05, 2017, 06:02:58 AM
Loops on your Vision Synchros did they come like that with the shaved down drag pick (like figure blades or just a little bit?) or had someone done that to them?  Curious.



When people do figures they often use a 1 inch or even 1 1/2 inch ROH because it helps them stay on the edge - I think of it this way: when they are on an outside edge, say, they are right over the edge and because of the flatter ROH that other edge is actually further away than it would be if they are in a deeper ROH....


On said patch blades, I did have a 1.5" grind. And it did make a HUGE difference in holding the edge.  Those blades, also are a bit wider than freestyle blades, so, by the logic you gave regarding a 1/2"grind on slimlines being shallower relative to freestyle blades, that 1.5 would actually have been deeper (?).  This is interesting in light of a discussion I had with our sharpener the other day.  He was surprised by my supremes (which are dovetailed), and we got on the subject of "difficult blades to sharpen", and I mentioned parabolics.  Here, people go on about the shape and how that in theory, helps turns, but his first reaction was that the grind would be different at the toe/tail relative to the middle.  What kind of an effect would *that* have do you think?  Probably a topic for another thread though.

And, on the topic of Supremes, Query thought they may have a more aggressive toepick....I went with them, because they are cross cut, and tbh, I don't think they're any more or less aggressive than my old Professionals.  They certainly make smaller holes in the ice (thereby saving me getting shouted at) than did the straight-cut monsters on my vision synchros......
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: lutefisk on February 05, 2017, 08:26:52 AM
When people do figures they often use a 1 inch or even 1 1/2 inch ROH because it helps them stay on the edge - I think of it this way: when they are on an outside edge, say, they are right over the edge and because of the flatter ROH that other edge is actually further away than it would be if they are in a deeper ROH....



On said patch blades, I did have a 1.5" grind. And it did make a HUGE difference in holding the edge.  Those blades, also are a bit wider than freestyle blades, so, by the logic you gave regarding a 1/2"grind on slimlines being shallower relative to freestyle blades, that 1.5 would actually have been deeper (?).  This is interesting in light of a discussion I had with our sharpener the other day.  He was surprised by my supremes (which are dovetailed), and we got on the subject of "difficult blades to sharpen", and I mentioned parabolics.  Here, people go on about the shape and how that in theory, helps turns, but his first reaction was that the grind would be different at the toe/tail relative to the middle.  What kind of an effect would *that* have do you think?  Probably a topic for another thread though.


Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to switch back and forth between patch blades and your "normal" blades?  For me, switching between my current boots/blades and my nearly identical old boots/blades (retained for outdoor skating) takes a good 15 minutes and that's with very similar equipment.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: icedancer on February 05, 2017, 03:28:00 PM

On said patch blades, I did have a 1.5" grind. And it did make a HUGE difference in holding the edge.  Those blades, also are a bit wider than freestyle blades, so, by the logic you gave regarding a 1/2"grind on slimlines being shallower relative to freestyle blades, that 1.5 would actually have been deeper (?).  This is interesting in light of a discussion I had with our sharpener the other day.  He was surprised by my supremes (which are dovetailed), and we got on the subject of "difficult blades to sharpen", and I mentioned parabolics.  Here, people go on about the shape and how that in theory, helps turns, but his first reaction was that the grind would be different at the toe/tail relative to the middle.  What kind of an effect would *that* have do you think?  Probably a topic for another thread though.


Yeah, I don't know how that would go with the patch blades at 1.5" ROH... I just can't wrap my mind around it!

I know I saw somewhere some very graphic drawings regarding blades and ROH - I will maybe try to find it.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on February 05, 2017, 08:33:46 PM
I know I saw somewhere some very graphic drawings regarding blades and ROH - I will maybe try to find it.

Here is one.

  http://www.skateny.com/sharpening/s_hollowmath.jpg

By the definitions in that diagram, depth of hollow is greater for smaller ROH. Which is the way I think of it.

However, a "deeper grind" has more than one meaning. It could mean the depth of hollow.

It could also mean the amount of metal removed during a grind, which can be much more, since many sharpeners, especially hockey sharpeners, are taught to remove extra metal to get rid of nicks. That can be arbitrarally large. For that matter, if your blade is already almost sharp, it could be less than the depth of hollow too. This second definition is very important, because the blade life is usually inversely proportional to the amount of metal removed, because you only have so much metal to lose before the blade geometry becomes worthless.

Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on February 06, 2017, 05:06:07 AM
So I just saw that the first part of my most recent post got eaten somehow.

Icedancer- My Vision Synchros came that way.  I made a poor word choice when I said "shaved".  MK talks about their "angled" drag pick.  It's angled all right...and never where I wanted it to be!  Then I said somehting about having to dig out my old Silver Tests to see how the picks compared.  I don't recall how much of a drag pick those blades have......


Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Loops on February 06, 2017, 05:12:50 AM
Lutefisk- transitioning was never a problem.  The blades feel completely different, because they're so flat.  Skating on them is more like skating on rental skates, in that you skid very easily.  At least that's what I recall.  My blades are now unmounted and haven't been used in years.  I'm hoarding them though, just in case I ever get the chance!

Also, on a patch session, you never really skated to the same degree.  Stroking was done around the edges of the rink, as close to the wall as possible to keep the ice clean.  Then you were more or less scribing circles, or skating your 8's/serpentines.  So it's never like you were doing fast fancy footwork or racing around the rink.  The skating is different.  Golly I miss it!
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: davincisop on May 03, 2017, 06:22:14 PM
Reviving this thread because I finally got my dance skates and have skated on them about 5 times now, about a total of maybe 8 hours.

The first day was SUPER weird. It felt like I couldn't hold any edge and that I was sliding. I ended up having to leave the them to get the toes stretched a bit. I got back on them this past Saturday and the widening helped immensely. I got on a public so I just stroked around to find my center and such. I'm having to really learn was "Skating through your heels" means, and out of habit going backwards I keep trying to rise to the toes which doesn't work! I ended up shifting my right blade a smidge and it made ALL the difference. Going backwards is still awkward because I am always worried I'm going to go off my heel (did this in freestyles too so it's nothing new), and I'm still fighting rising to the toe going backwards. So it's a work in progress. But I managed an ok scratch spin in them yesterday and today, spinning feels very very weird, but I have to get used to it on them since I plan on competing free dance and such in them. Next week I plan to put the freestyles back on just so I can get comfortable going back and forth in my skates. But right now MITF and Dance are going to be done in my dance skates.


The back threes are going to be my downfall. I'm still barely managing them in freestyles bc I keep tensing and rising to my toe, and it's even MORE pronounced in my dance skates..... coach is going to have a field day tomorrow.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on May 07, 2017, 04:30:21 PM
As the newbie with dance blades, I am happy to update as well. I continue to progress in my skating, but switching blades was definitely a progression slower-downer in some ways. But there is the fact that I am learning to manage higher level blades, and that in itself is progress to me. I cannot say I am back to where I was, skill wise, before I switched blades last December, because I am actually more advanced in some things. A month or so ago my stroking with pretty extension and one foot glides finally came back consistently,  this month my front crossovers are improving, I am finally able to find my outside edges and get a bit of a lean and underpush going. I am working on back crossovers a bit better than I was in December.  My two foot turns, both front and back, are greatly improved since last year, and I am managing a decent two foot spin from time to time. Probably the coolest thing is my T stops are looking awesome on both sides at greater speeds, much better than prior to my switching blades.

Overall I am still a bit intimidated by the speed generated when I skate backwards, it has been my biggest challenge since switching blades. It is getting better, but I am definitely not as comfortable with back skating (swizzles, stroking etc ) as I was prior, I simply have not gotten comfortable with the rapid acceleration these blades have compared to my others. Still very glad I switched early in the game. There are some much higher level skaters who have told me they would be scared to switch, I think I just did not have the experience to notice as much of as difference.
Title: Re: !
Post by: Query on May 07, 2017, 09:14:47 PM
When people do figures they often use a 1 inch or even 1 1/2 inch ROH because it helps them stay on the edge - I think of it this way: when they are on an outside edge, say, they are right over the edge and because of the flatter ROH that other edge is actually further away than it would be if they are in a deeper ROH....

Jaya Kanal had a recorded video conversation with Mike Cunningham, regarding Figures blade sharpening:

  https://somaticsport.atavist.com/itfigures

I seem to recall a different discussion in which Mike explained that the flatter (less curved, shallower depth) hollow was in part to simulate the effect of older figure blades, which were wider than current figure skating blades. Which I suppose would also make it easier to stay on one or another edge.

But what do figure blades have to do with Dance blades? True, they both de-emphasize the toepick, but Dance blades usually have a deeper hollow (as Mike explains) - to compensate for the thin-line bottom, which effectively makes the blade thinner (so you need a deepr hollow to get the same edge angles), whereas figure blades are often sharpened with a flatter hollow.

So Dance and Figure blades seem like completely different beasties.

P.S. When Mike said he has been sharpening blades for 100 years he wasn't being serious. It's only about 50. Not long at all. :)

P.P.S. Mike is a very interesting person to talk to, if you get a chance. I took some lessons from Jaya, BTW - but only basic Freestyle moves, not Dance or Figures.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Ethereal Ice on May 08, 2017, 10:03:10 PM
After reading Query's post above, I wanted to add to my update that I ended up keeping my 7/16 ROH after all (I had gone on and on earlier about possibly switching back to 1/2" that I had on my previous blades). Some assistance from my coach helped me to manage some of the "grabbiness" that I was feeling, it was my errors, not the blades. Though I have essentially gotten used to the narrowness and deeper ROH, I still "feel" more in these blades, they are not as forgiving of bad quality ice as my others.

It was interesting that when my husband got his custom Harlicks, same dance blade as mine, the sharpener they use did choose the 1/2" ROH for him since he is a newbie too, even more so than me (way less skating hours because it took so long to get him skates that fit). Anyway, it was a good choice, he was comfy with them from the get go and is making rapid progress on his basic elements.
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Query on May 08, 2017, 10:55:14 PM
Ethereal Ice, what dance blades did you get? Not all Dance blades are thinline. E.g., MK Dance are, but Ultima Dance are not, last I knew.

Regardless, as long as you don't jump, I bet you come to love them. It just takes time to get used to everything.

BTW, I wouldn't keep changing back and forth between hollow radii. Every time you switch, you waste a huge amount of metal, and thereby reduce blade lifetime.

Also, depending on how and whether the sharpener (slightly) dulls the blades after sharpening them, and whether or not he/she uses a "fine grit" wheel, both 1/2" and 7/16" can feel quite sharp. Of course, if the sharpener leaves them super-sharp, you may not be able to walk off-ice at all without blade guards on, else you bend the edge. Which is why most sharpeners either dull the edge a bit, and/or use a medium grit wheel.

I used to like my blades. But it is so much more convenient to be able to walk short distances off the ice, especially since I started working as a rink guard. Many coaches find that convenient too. Rink guards and coaches come on and off the ice too often to do otherwise. The truth is, I think I used super-sharp blades to compensate for poor body alignment. If you align everything right, you don't need to be nearly as sharp.

OTOH, I simply cannot skate at all well on our rental skates. They feel like they have no edge, and I slip and slide all over the place. I am very confused about how some of the LTS students manage as well as they do on rentals. I guess that means I am still not aligned quite right. Maybe it is good practice to skate on dull blades?
Title: Re: Transitioning to dance blades… advice?
Post by: Bill_S on May 09, 2017, 01:07:49 PM

 The truth is, I think I used super-sharp blades to compensate for poor body alignment. If you align everything right, you don't need to be nearly as sharp.


I think that this is very common for many skaters. Good observation, and I agree.