Shimming the gap between the blade and boot outer sole

[Kaitsu]

I would have some questions for those whom use to shim gaps between the blade and outer sole.

1. If gaps in left and right foot boots are remarkably different, how do you shim them?
2. How do you choose if you add shims to heel or sole or both?
3. I could assume that most of us would like get left and right foot to pretty close to identical, but how do you measure that they are identical after shimming if caps are not identical? (expectations is that shimming is done only to fill caps)
4. What would you do if you should mount blades to the skates what you see on attached photo? (You need to be prepared this kind of things if you are dealing with Edea boots. They call it normal handcraft tolerance)

[Query]

Wow! That's a big gap.

On my old Klingbeil boots, the not-very-competent skate tech sanded the soles to be co-planer. But on the boots you show, that would remove a LOT of sole - maybe enough to adversely affect the function of the outsole. In fact, if I read the picture right, there might not be any outsole left in some spots.

The solutions I use for my own boots (e.g., originally leather, but eventually cloth first aid tape) might not be very practical for a boot with that much gap - and the filler would be highly visible.

I think of filling the gap being a matter of trying not to warp the blade - but some skate techs use the screws to force the mounting plate to conform to the outsole. But with that much gap, I wonder if the blade might also break if you force it.

In my boots, most of the toe spring (the upwards bend forwards of the ball of the foot) has been inside the boot, not outside - but I suppose that increases the weight of the sole. And Edea is known for making relatively lightweight boots. Is that much toe spring on the outsole common now?

If so, maybe there is a product made for this... I'd be tempted to contact the boot maker and blade makers, and their distributors, for advise, since they may have dealt with this before.

BTW, I did a random web search for shimming Edea boots. I found http://precisionblade.com/index.php/precision-blade-mounting which says

You cannot sand any boot with a membrane sole (such as Edea boots). Gaps will be filled with PBLC epoxy for full contact and support.

I don't know anything about that company, or whether they are competent. If you use their method, be aware that Barge cement and epoxy are toxic, possibly even to inhale the fumes, and might adhere to skin too.Since you have an engineering background, you probably know that - but if anyone else on this board wants to attempt it, they need to be cautious too.

[FigureSpins]

Good grief, let it go.  The company that made your misfortunate skates is long gone and I'm sure you don't use the fitter anymore, so why bring it up in a discussion about 21st century skates?  Sheesh.

[FigureSpins]

Attached is the Graf Skate User Manual that came with my Edmonton Specials two years ago.  The little baggie of screws are indeed blunt-pointed and brass-toned.  Otherwise, they are the same as normal blade screws - Philips screwdriver needed, some are pan head screws, some are counter-sunk screws.  Thanks for discussing this - I found that the box had two retention straps for the laces that I never used.  I have a student who might like to use them.

[supersharp]

I would have some questions for those whom use to shim gaps between the blade and outer sole.

1. If gaps in left and right foot boots are remarkably different, how do you shim them?
2. How do you choose if you add shims to heel or sole or both?
3. I could assume that most of us would like get left and right foot to pretty close to identical, but how do you measure that they are identical after shimming if caps are not identical? (expectations is that shimming is done only to fill caps)
4. What would you do if you should mount blades to the skates what you see on attached photo? (You need to be prepared this kind of things if you are dealing with Edea boots. They call it normal handcraft tolerance)

1. If L and R gaps are different, I would start by assessing whether the difference is in the boot soles or in the blade mounting plates, or both.  The best final result for the skater will be if both blades are in the same alignment underfoot so that the skater stands centered over both blades in pretty much the same spot.  I would also tell the parents or skater (if adult) that this combination of boots and blades is problematic.
2.  You may have to add different amount of shimming to the heel and toe of each boot if the gaps are different sizes.  If you only shim the toe or only shim the heel, they may end up at different angles underfoot.  This makes mounting the blades a long and frustrating battle.
3.  I set the boots side-by-side on a flat surface and look at the gaps below the toes and heels and see if the backs of the boots are standing at the same angle.  Of course, any one of these things could have variation in them (sole, insole, boot back, toe box...it's enough to drive you crazy).  Still, overall, as you look at the boots standing there, if you start placing a shim under one boot to get the back lined up, you can see if it makes the boot look more like it is lined up with the other boot .  I experiment with it until I feel like I'm seeing the two boots sitting in a similar configuration, and then note the amount of shimming that was done (and where) to accomplish this.  Since the blades are not co-planar(yes, I know such blades exist but I have never mounted any, and I have only ever seen one pair on a skater), you then have to translate this to how they will meet with the angled sole plates.  I do the same thing with the blades, which are generally closer to the same configuration than the boots, although many are not identical due to the so-called "handcraft tolerance".  The final step is to take the information about the differences in the sole  and sole plate alignment and translate it to how to fill the gaps so that the blades are aligned the same on each foot.  This is why mounting blades is such a money-losing task...only the highest-level skaters are really willing to pay for the time it takes for this process.    And unfortunately, the lower-end equipment is often the hardest to mount correctly, so you end up donating your time just because you can't stand to do it wrong.
4.  Those Edea boots can't be ground down, so it has to all be built up with epoxy or other materials.  No matter what you do, it is going to look strange with the size of shim you need.
5.  My additional thoughts--I would want to track the skater and see if they were having problems with being too far on the ball of the foot or too far back on the heels after having to this degree of shimming.  Of course, that is easier for me to say because we only have one rink and I skate alongside most of the kids, so I have the opportunity to see if their skating suddenly got better or worse after moving to this boot/blade combination.  Sometimes you can make a final correction inside the boot by shimming under the insole.

[Bill_S]

I have an even simpler approach. It requires no shims. Use a clamp to bend the toe of the boot to the blade for marking. Remove the clamp and pre-drill screw holes where you marked. Insert screws, then SLOWLY tighten the mounting screws using a tightening pattern like torquing down a car's cylinder head. This will bend the boot to meet the blade mount with no ill effects.

A metal blade is very stiff front to back, but the boot isn't. The boot can flex without too much force. Over time, it will even change its resting shape to match the metal sole plates.

The photo below shows my worst-case scenario - mounting a pair of PIC frames onto Riedell Bronze Star boots. PIC skates have a flat, "co-planar" mounting surface, unlike most ice skating blades. When they are mounted, there is a tremendous gap between the front of the sole and the blade. The front sole as you can see in this photo, was pulled fairly far to mate with the flat PIC frame, overcoming the large mount mismatch.



Get a soft-jawed clamp to flex the front of the boot into contact with the sole plate to mark mounting holes. It won't take as much force as you think to flex the boot.

Pilot-drill mounting holes using the marks you made earlier, and insert the heel screws first.

Loosely start the screws at the front half of the blade. Start with a gentle snugging of them -  well short of full tightening effort. Work around the sole plate, tightening individual screws a little at a time. Return to the first screw and make it a little tighter, and repeat. Don't let one single screw endure the entire force required to pull the boot's sole into contact. The combined force of all the screws should be used to pull the boot in contact. If you feel that an individual screw is taking too much effort and risks stripping, stop. That will be especially true if a screw has just one or two threads engaged in the sole.

In the case of the PIC skates, I had a HUGE gap so I only partially tightened the front screws to avoid stripping them. I skated in them for a couple of hours to break-in the boot, allowing more boot flex, then tightened the screws further using the same pattern. It worked, and my PIC frames never had an issue afterward.

This method has the advantage of making both boots symmetrical in shape. They conform to the more accurate tolerances of the blade's sole plates.

[tstop4me]

I have an even simpler approach. It requires no shims. Use a clamp to bend the toe of the boot to the blade for marking. Remove the clamp and pre-drill screw holes where you marked. Insert screws, then SLOWLY tighten the mounting screws using a tightening pattern like torquing down a car's cylinder head. This will bend the boot to meet the blade mount with no ill effects.

A metal blade is very stiff front to back, but the boot isn't. The boot can flex without too much force. Over time, it will even change its resting shape to match the metal sole plates.

The photo below shows my worst-case scenario - mounting a pair of PIC frames onto Riedell Bronze Star boots. ...

Word of caution here.  Your experience has been with leather soles and heels.  Leather is fairly pliable.  I don't know how pliable Edea soles and heels are.  I've only worked with leather.

[Query]

Good grief, let it go.  The company that made your misfortunate skates is long gone and I'm sure you don't use the fitter anymore, so why bring it up in a discussion about 21st century skates?  Sheesh.

Because I was discussing sanding the boot outsole to be co-planar, something some skate techs still do. It makes it a lot easier to play with different blade offsets, because you don't have to keep changing the shim. So, on some boots, it might still make sense. While I didn't like everything that skate tech did, co-planar sanding actually made some sense, and made it easier for me to play with different offsets.

Kaitsu's initial question was general, not specific to a particular boot. But it's obvious the boot Kaitsu pictured might require a special approach because of the size of that toe spring, and the fact that it is close to the toe pick, which potentially takes a lot of force. E.g., would silicone gasket sealing compound, which I think Bill_S said he has sometimes used, be too flexible? I don't think cloth first aid tape would be stable enough. (Even on my boots and blades, duct tape wasn't stable enough, so had to keep being replaced.) Maybe you could make leather work, but I'm not sure how to prevent it from shifting. Also, because the gap is so large, other people can see the shim, so you might want to match colors, if you are picky or are worried the audience or judges might be picky. The off-white plastic sheet material I've seen some skate techs use for shims wouldn't match those bright white boots.

Bill's solution is very interesting. But if I understand Edea's logic, and maybe I don't, they use the boot shape they use so the effective boot length can be shorter, and therefore more maneuverable. Flattening out the soles defeats some of the purpose, doesn't it? Also, is the Edea boot material flexible enough to do that?

Edit: sorry, I posted before seeing tstop4me's last post, which is what I asked about in my last sentence.

[Query]

Bill's solution is very interesting. But if I understand Edea's logic, and maybe I don't, they use the boot shape they use so the effective boot length can be shorter, and therefore more maneuverable. Flattening out the soles defeats some of the purpose, doesn't it?

Let me clarify what I meant. I think the steep forward tilt at the footbed of Edea boots is to make the boot shorter in the horizontal ice plane, which Edea says makes you more maneuverable.

The large toe spring is used to help prevent the foot from sliding forwards, as a result of that steep forward tilt, so that, for example, the heel of the foot remains in contact with the heel of the boot, giving you better control. In addition, I think it is desirable for the ball of the foot remain where the bend where the toe spring starts is, to prevent injuries to the foot. A large toe spring is needed partly because of the high tilt, and partly because Edea does not allow you to customize the footbed as much as some brands. (In particular, some brands let you specify the width at 3 points along the length, whereas Edea only lets you specify 1 width. That means that the bottom of some people's feet will be less snug in Edea skates, and will slide more easily.)

(Please don't take this as a criticism of Edea skates. Many people love them. Likewise, other people love other skate brands.)

If you use epoxy as your shim material, choose your epoxy carefully. According to West Systems Epoxy (which makes marine market epoxies) some epoxies are stiffer than others, some are stronger than others, and some take flexing without breaking better than others. Unfortunately I don't know how to figure out what epoxy would be best for a given situation. On top of that, people sometimes modify the properties of an epoxy by using a variety of fillers and hardeners, and they can modify the color as well. Maybe the one in the link I gave earlier is adequate?? Though the video at that page showed a much smaller gap than Katisu's case.

Also, when I said Barge cement and epoxy are toxic, I don't know if that is true of all current formulations of Barge and epoxy.

As I indicated earlier, I bet Edea and its distributors deal with this a lot, and would know what to do. It is also possible that blade makers are asked to help deal with it a lot too. Why not ask them?

[tstop4me]

Kaitsu:

*  Do you have enough experience with these boots and blades that you are confident that they are both within normal manufacturing variation?  That is, that the boot or the blade is not defective?  Or is this simply is a matter of bad luck, the boot and the blade are both OK, but the variation of each is in opposite directions such that you have a large mismatch?

* Do you want to exercise the option of turning down the job?  Or do you view this as an engineering challenge?  Will you be able to charge the skater for the extra time (and maybe materials); or are you willing to absorb the loss?  I work only on my own skates and on those of a few skaters I'm friends with.  I don't charge them, and I help them when their techs can't or won't fix their skates.

*  I've routinely installed shims, but not to compensate for gaps between boots and blades.  I've installed shims to intentionally change the alignment of the blade; mainly to tilt the blade along the inside-to-outside axis;  but also, less frequently, along the toe-to-heel axis.

*  To compensate for gaps, I've routinely used Bill's method.  It works.  But with the important caveats that the boots had traditional thick leather soles and heels, and I used traditional sheet-metal screws. 

- I've never worked with Edeas.  But if I were to try this approach, I would first get a discarded pair of Edeas to practice on.  The last thing I would want to be on the hook for is destroying a pair of Ice Fly or Piano (!$$$!)  Besides the issue I raised earlier concerning the pliability of the Edea soles and heels, there's also the issue of the thinner Edea soles and the special screws. Will partially engaged screws be able to apply enough tension to deform the soles and heels?  Or will the holes strip?

- As a follow-up to Bill's post, I've also had to torque down the screws in successive stages.  That is, I mount the blades initially, but with still some degree of gap present.  I skate a session, then torque down the screws to close the gap further.  In my worst case, it took around 6 sessions before I closed the gap (nearly) fully.  Will your skater be able to torque down the screws after each session herself?  If not, will she have the discipline to come back to you after each session for you to torque down the screws further?

* Whether you choose to use shims or not, the standard mounting procedure will likely not be sufficient.  That is, you typically start off with a temporary mount, installing only the four screws in the elongated mounting slots.  The skater tries out her skates and gives you feedback; you make some adjustments; and when she's happy, you install a few permanent screws.  Now, whether you deform the boot substantially or install shims, you will likely need to install more screws to begin with, and the temporary mount may not be dispositive of the final mount.  In which case, you likely will need to plug and re-drill more holes than usual.

* With respect to installing shims in your scenario, you need to take into account that where you place the shims will alter the overall heel pitch.  So placing shims at both the sole and the heel might be the best approach.  That would also allow you to use a "medium" thickness shim at both sites, rather than a "large" thickness shim at one site.  In any case, be prepared to go through more than one iteration if the skater is not happy with the heel pitch.  A good reason not to use something permanent (or at least difficult to remove) such as epoxy for a shim (at least not initially).  You want shims that are easily variable in thickness and that are easily replaceable (at least initially).  For relatively thin shims, I make shims out of sheet plastic of different thicknesses, and I stack them as needed.  For relatively thick shims, I use washers of different thicknesses, and I stack them as needed.

* You will likely need screws that are longer than the supplied Edea screws (especially if you need thick shims, but maybe also if you initially deform the boot and need to start with a gap).  So you may want to order longer hi-lo screws in advance.

[Query]

If you decide to bend the sole, perhaps it should be fairly warm, to increase pliability.

Edea's blade mounting picture and this video  do not show needing any shim. They both make blade mounting look easier than your case.

Perhaps perhaps Edea, or one of its distributors, could tell you if that much gap indicates a defective boot or blade.

You could check whether the other boot of the same pair have the same amount of gap.

You could also check whether the boot has the same gap with the other blade of the same pair.

[Kaitsu]

tstop4me, sorry for late reply.

I have enough experience to say that gaps are coming from the boots variation. Often one foot boot has bigger gap than the other foot. I can understand that hand grafted products are always unique, but there should still be some factory inspection / tolerance. Its a bit silly that co-planar boots and blades are not available. It would create kind of standard for all boot and blade manufacturers. Flat is flat for all, but magnitude of curved / tilted soles and heels are always blade and boot manufacturer specific.

I am working mainly with Risport and Edea boots and they both have basically always some gap in the frontal area. Not so bad as we can see on my example picture, but still enough big to cause some headache. Both brands does have very stiff soles, except they are kind of beginner skates. This probably because there is quite thick plastic layer under the insole. Quite many times the technique what Bill uses is not working for these boots. I can use screws to reduce the gap until to certain point, but in some stage screw start to work like a drill. It starts to pull out the material from sole instead of reducing gap. This happens especially if screw has not entered all the way to this plastic layer. Longer screws for a temporary use could help, just like Query mentioned.

Especially Edea does have so much plastic that even the huge gap what we can see on my example picture can be sorted out without any epoxy filling. Just like Bill, I am using screws to force the blade against the boot, but I use heat gun to make boot enough soft that I will not cause too much stress for the blade with this process. You just need to be careful not to over heat the boot. When the boot has cool down, there is often zero stress coming from the boot and blade sits nicely. If I would fill such a huge gap with epoxy, it would would not be very pretty and I would also wonder how such a banana boot would feel on foots.

I have 4 tubes of PBHE skate Epoxy, but I have never used them. One reason for this is that I cannot remember any used skates where blade would pop-up like a spring when I loosed the screws. Its true that there is high torque in the beginning, but that seems to dissapear when skates are used. I cannot be sure which one is deforming, blade, boot or both. However I want to believe that its the boot which will change the shape, just like Bill thinks.

Bill, can you post picture how you use clamps. I will use very similar blade mounting stand than what EDEA`s selling and that work a bit like clamps you mentioned.

[Query]

BTW, am I correct, based on the trim, that this is an Ice Fly? Not a cheap boot!

Why not just talk to Edea or their distributor, show them the picture, and ask whether the boot looks defective?

If they agree to replace it, it would save you a lot of risk and trouble, and it might be better for the skater in the long run.

Your picture is an excellent example of how badly a boot manufacturer can mess up. I don't think Edea, a fairly high end manufacturer, would want this boot in the public eye. Especially if you showed Edea this forum thread, so they would see it is getting a lot of publicity. I would think Edea would send you a replacement boot that didn't have the same problem, so that everyone who reads this forum would know that Edea would stick their customers and distributors with a boot like this.

Also, you are a professional skate tech, who I assume helps them sell their boots. They would want you to be happy, so you would continue to do so. It is not uncommon for a pro shop to ask the manufacturer to let them return defective products. I bet they would pay the cost of return shipping.

Did you check whether the other boot in the pair, with the other blade, has the same issue?

[Kaitsu]

Query, You are right, boots in first picture are Edea Ice fly.

I have been in contact to boot manufacturers whom makes only boots by asking, for which blade brand their boots has been designed so that gap would be smallest possible. I have sent them example pictures from skates which has big gap between the blade and boot sole. They have always standard answer for most of the questions. Boots are hand grafted and this is within normal variation or they simply ask you to contact the shop where they have been purchased. So its only wasting of time to try discuss with boot manufacturers. They will never give you instructions how to solve their handcraft tolerances.

Ones I asked advice from EDEA how to ensure that skate pair what I do have in my hands are same width (C or D) when one sole was 2mm wider than another. Answer was following...if there is only size stamp (in this case 215) and no any letter, they are C width. I was not pleased to this answer and I asked if there is any possibility that boots has mixed somehow in the factory and one foot boot does have simply wrong stamping or if they have glued mistakenly D width sole to C width boot. Reply for this was that they are handcrafted and within the factory tolerances. 2 mm wider sole will not affect to skating at any level. I told them that I agree that if only the sole is 2 mm wider, it will not affect to skating. However I didn't get any answer how can I verify with measurements if one foot boot width is example C and another D. They didn't either reply to my question, why the dotted line in the one sole is 2 mm wider in the same way as the sole. Maybe they have some very steady handed person whom paints these lines in to the bottom of sole handcrafted. I cannot understand why they could not advice how to identify different widths of the boot with measurements. Most likely because there is now any nominal dimensions or tolerances. They just have different shoe last for each width and they trust that D is wider than C, because D comes after C in alphabetical order. 

I have to say that all boots does have more or less gap, so this is not just Edea´s issue. My example was extreme case and I shared that because I was interested couple things...
* Hear how other people would fix such an issue. Mainly I was interesting to hear if someone would try to fill such a huge gap with epoxy or with some other shimming material.
* Hear how people will solve the very common problem that the gap is bigger in left foot than right foot or opposite.
* Share information that people are aware what kind of issues skate techs has to face / solve before skates are in condition that you can go to ice with them. Its not just plug & play thing.
* Help people to sort-out such an issues

Skate manufacturers are generally not very interested to discuss with skate techs, except your skaters are competing in world champion level. If your skater is world class skater, they might be interested to discuss with you, but they are most likely more interested to get marketing value for them selves that product improvement. No matter which sport we are talking about, world class is not using same bulk stuff as we are using. Mass produced products are needed to make profit for company and highly customized products are needed for marketing purposes so that they have customers for bulk stuff. Business model in sport industry is pretty simple in that means.

In the other hand one reason why manufacturers may not be interested  to discuss with me is that I claim from the problems what most likely 99% of other customers will not even notice. Why to please 1% of the customers when there is still 99% of happy customers. This leads to question, do I pay attention to things which does not actually matter?

One simple improvement in boots could be example that boot manufacturers would make some kind of marking in to soles to identify their opinion about the boot center point. I am sure that everyone has their own opinion where blade should be mounted, so most likely this is the reason why they do not want to give any own opinion with markings. It would be however nice to have some starting point without need to make measurements.


Attached some new picture which hopefully gives some idea how boots can vary.

[supersharp]

I completely agree. 

I understand why none of the manufacturers would mark a leather sole—the hand shaping of the sides of the sole definitely add some variation. But on the new molded soles, why can’t they just have a little dimple at the front center and back center?  Skate techs can still mount the blade wherever they want, but it would save us from having to find this center individually on the toe and on the heel of every boot. 

I’m especially surprised they don’t manufacture a mark on the lower-level boots because the manufacturer or  their dealers are attaching the blades in advance of selling the boots.  It is really disappointing to see the lack of care and consistency in this process. I had initially imagined that for a stock set of boots with blades, the shop would have a template that matched the sole with the drilling points laid out, like a ski shop would use for mounting bindings. Clearly this is not the case, since I see so many bad mountings on lower-level skates. The screws are placed at all different angles, and even if they started with the blade straight and lined up nicely, the final product has been pulled into a curve or twist, or both, by tightening all the angled screws.  All of this seems so easily avoidable. Sigh.

As Kaitsu points out, if you approach the manufacturer, they just claim it is within tolerances and that they have no control over the mounting process. I’m sure that they think it doesn’t matter and why is there this tiny handful of techs out there that think new skaters should be given equipment with blades that are correctly mounted and sharpened?  If your skill level is low, you may not notice subtle differences between blades but I’m not really talking about subtle differences.  If one blade is mounted on a curve, it’s going to pull you to one side, and typically this also means that it will be sharpened inconsistently so that the edge angles vary at the center compared to the front and back. Maybe this is okay for an occasional recreational skater, but it is definitely not suitable for someone trying to learn their basic edges. 

I’m convinced that many people that try to skate are convinced that it’s too hard because they are using terrible skates. Of course, skating kind of is “too hard” in the sense that it is a very precise sport that takes a lot of efforts for a small return…but that should not be the case at the early developmental levels.  Most people should be able to get proficient at forward and backward crossovers and a few simple turns and steps.

[Query]

Kaitsu, you are willing to go the extra mile to make these boots work. But most skate techs know a lot less than you, and would likely completely mess up these boots - maybe even break them, or the blades, trying to make them fit each other. I doubt most of them feel up to using epoxy. Layers of leather is much more common, last I checked, but you would need a lot of leather to fix this large a gap, and I'm not sure how stable that would be.

When I watched Mike Cunningham work, he returned a lot of boots, and blades, that he felt were defective. Maybe 10 or 15%. He was a world class skate tech, with world class customers. But he did it for the low end customers too. But, maybe you are right - it is possible the manufacturers were willing to let him get away with it because they wanted the world class skaters to use their brands. He dropped one brand of boot, when a manufacturer refused to take a return - and told many of his customers about that, advising them not to get that brand.

I've talked to many skate techs who weren't world class, who also returned defective blades - specifically, ones that were too warped. But I never asked about whether they also returned boots.

I guess you could partially fix the problem by shimming under the heel. But, that would just mean a different part of the front of the boot wouldn't fit the blade.

If I tried to wear a boot like that, I think it would hurt, to have the front of my foot bent so far upwards.

I think Edea might pay a high price for not making you happy. I bet a lot of people read these forums, and they will be tempted to stay away from Edea.

I almost once bought Edeas, but David Ripp said I didn't have Edea feet. But even if I had, your experience would be enough for me to stay away from Edea. You may think the way they treated you is normal, but I find it impossible to respect the way they have treated you.

A number of skate techs - not all of them world class - have told me that that when boot makers make full custom boots, they are usually willing to take returns if the customer is unhappy. Of course Edea doesn't make full custom boots. And companies that do, charge a fair bit extra for full custom skates.

[supersharp]

Query, You are right, boots in first picture are Edea Ice fly.

I have been in contact to boot manufacturers whom makes only boots by asking, for which blade brand their boots has been designed so that gap would be smallest possible. I have sent them example pictures from skates which has big gap between the blade and boot sole. They have always standard answer for most of the questions. Boots are hand grafted and this is within normal variation or they simply ask you to contact the shop where they have been purchased. So its only wasting of time to try discuss with boot manufacturers. They will never give you instructions how to solve their handcraft tolerances.

I have to say that all boots does have more or less gap, so this is not just Edea´s issue. My example was extreme case and I shared that because I was interested couple things...
* Hear how other people would fix such an issue. Mainly I was interesting to hear if someone would try to fill such a huge gap with epoxy or with some other shimming material.
* Hear how people will solve the very common problem that the gap is bigger in left foot than right foot or opposite.
* Share information that people are aware what kind of issues skate techs has to face / solve before skates are in condition that you can go to ice with them. Its not just plug & play thing.
* Help people to sort-out such an issues

Attached some new picture which hopefully gives some idea how boots can vary.

Interesting that you have a Coronation Ace Lite that seems to fit nicely on an Edea boot in your photo collage, and the boot you started the thread with has a different fit. It looks like a different model of boot—do you typically see a difference in the way blades fit on the different models of Edea boots?  Or is this just a difference between any two pairs of boots due to the enormity of their “handcraft tolerance”?

One of the things I have puzzled over is: 

If a boot is designed with a particular toe-spring and ramp angle as part of its inherent design, and the blade you attach has a very different angle (Kaitsu’s first image is an excellent example of this, what effect does this have on the use of the boot if you force the boot to conform to the sole plate? 

If the boot has a higher toe lift design as a method for balancing your weight over the ball of the foot, flattening that toe lift out will change the way your foot sits in the boot. I’m sure small changes are unimportant but for a mismatch as big as in the photo that started this thread, the difference would matter—if this toe lift is a design feature rather than just an example of poor construction.

It’s probably easier to know whether this is a design feature if you see a lot of the same brand of boots.  For example, I see a lot of Jackson boots because Alaska is right next to Canada and they are easily available and come in wider sizes than many of the other boots (we seem to have a lot of skaters with wide feet).  Off the top of my head, I would say that almost half of the kids in out skating club wear Jackson boots. I have an expectation of how different blades will sit on a Jackson boot, and not sure, the Ultima blades (made by Jackson) fit the best. For other brands, I need to do some shimming and sanding. I notice if there is a pair that is different and doesn’t match the blade plates as expected.

I see Edea boots very occasionally (three or four pair in the last 12 years), so I don’t have that same knowledge base, and I wouldn’t know if it was just that pair of boots or if it is how any Edea boot would match with that blade. 

I guess I am just restating the quoted thread—why can’t manufacturers at least reveal to us the intended angles of the boot soles and blade plates so we can at least have a fighting chance of getting a good combination? 

This is part of why so many equipment choices are mysterious and almost based in superstition.  There just isn’t any real information available for skaters to base decisions on.

[AlbaNY]

I skimmed this thread and didn't see anyone mention this, but Edea makes a shim for exactly this situation when mounting inline frames.  It's called a power wedge.  I needed that for the pair I had the PICskates mounted on. 
I'm not certain it is meant for use with blades though.

https://skatesus.com/product/edea-power-wedges/

[Query]

I once wondered how skate boot outsoles were made. Most leather boots use "hardened leather" soles. I assume you could make a shim the same way.

A very quick, non-authoritative web search shows that there are actually many ways to harden leather - though at least one of them said some of them work better with some types of leather than others.

Nonetheless, it seems like leather is actually pretty easy to harden. Not just adhesives (some say epoxy works well, others disagree), but also hammering, and baking, which at least sounds ridiculously easy. People used to make leather armour (and hobbiests still do), that was very durable.

E.g.,

https://mazeleather.com/4-ways-to-harden-leather/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwGW_qwpxYs

https://hackaday.com/2019/05/26/loads-of-testing-yields-new-reliable-and-cheap-leather-hardening-technique/

https://medium.com/@jasontimmermans/a-comparative-study-of-leather-hardening-techniques-16-methods-tested-and-novel-approaches-8574e571f619

(I'm just listing the first few entries from a Google search on hardening leather. I'm sure you can find many others.)

It sounds like some of these methods would be pretty easy, fast and rather fun to try. Furthermore, if you weren't happy with the results, you might be able to remove the leather shim you produced. Though if you used an adhesive while molding the shim to the boot, you might have to sand it off - but I'm sure you have the tools to sand things.

All of these methods have an obvious problem. People love Edea boots partly because they are fairly light. Shims add weight. I'm not sure if the shim you are talking about is large enough to worry about the weight. But if it is, how would you find a lightweight but relatively uncompressible and durable shim. That sounds like a materials science or engineering problem - and I guess you have the right background for that.

I suspect wood is one of the lightest materials you could use. In the boating world, West Systems Epoxy, possibly the biggest marine epoxy supplier, advocates infusing wood with one of their epoxies, and that can last a lot longer than most skate boots last. But that would add a fair bit of weight. Bill_S has mentioned using Silicone to waterproof boot soles - though I don't know how durable it is.

I've become interested in building my own lightweight sea kayak. A lot of people use wood (both natural wood and plywood), because it is light and easy to work, though it needs to be waterproofed and requires some care. People on boatdesign.net, which has a lot of engineers, say it also has a relatively high strength to weight ratio, and tends to resist crack formation, so it doesn't break as easily under long term stress as some materials. Many skate boot makers have already used wooden heels - I assume for the same reasons. The ease with which wood can be shaped might make it fun to play with too. Sometimes people infuse it with steam, or use "live wood", to make it more flexible, to comform to shape, perhaps like the bottom of the Edae boot. Sometimes they laminate several layers of thin wood instead to comform to shape.

(BTW, someone in this discussion wished coplanar boots and blades were available. For blades, they could look at Goldquest coplanar blades, which are still available, as of a few months ago. They also have separate adjustable toepick heights and styles, so the blades can be used longer.  On traditional skate boots, with thick leather soles, people sand the outsole to be coplanar too. Unfortunately, with the very thin outsoles on Edea boots, you obviously can't sand the outsoles to be coplanar, plus you already have the blades, so it's completely irrelevant to your case.)

[supersharp]

I skimmed this thread and didn't see anyone mention this, but Edea makes a shim for exactly this situation when mounting inline frames.  It's called a power wedge.  I needed that for the pair I had the PICskates mounted on. 
I'm not certain it is meant for use with blades though.

https://skatesus.com/product/edea-power-wedges/

Good find, Alba! 

[supersharp]

I thought I would order a couple of pairs of the power wedges, just to see them.  At $8/pair, it seemed like it was worth it.

Shipping...see attached screenshot.  Yikes.

[tstop4me]

I thought I would order a couple of pairs of the power wedges, just to see them.  At $8/pair, it seemed like it was worth it.

Shipping...see attached screenshot.  Yikes.

Yikes, for sure, in absolute amounts.  Surprising is the difference in rates, though.  UPS 2-day Air is only a few dollars more than UPS Ground, but FedEx 2-day is less than one-half of UPS Ground.

[AlbaNY]

Supersharp, wow!   

Perhaps another vendor is more reasonable about it?  I assume it is due to your location, but ouch.

[Isk8NYC]

:wow:

[Kaitsu]

Do you typically see a difference in the way blades fit on the different models of Edea boots?  Or is this just a difference between any two pairs of boots due to the enormity of their “handcraft tolerance”?

It’s not any particular Edea model where these gaps occurs.  It varies for pair to pair and even with left and right foot. I am confident that it is coming from “handcraft tolerance” and fact that Edea boots are very easy to re-shape. I believe they use also heat to shape the boots and when they cool down in as a free stage, it causes this variation.  Even there is some times a big gaps, I rather mount blades to Edea boots than traditional leather sole boots. In Edea boots I never need to worry if screw gets loosen over the time and I do not need to mess with Snow-Seal or clear coats to protect soles from the moisture.

If a boot is designed with a particular toe-spring and ramp angle as part of its inherent design, and the blade you attach has a very different angle (Kaitsu’s first image is an excellent example of this, what effect does this have on the use of the boot if you force the boot to conform to the sole plate?

I can understand your point, but as long as blade and boot manufacturers do not open their design principles, I will try to force boot to conform sole plate. As I have never even wear figure skates, I do not have such knowledge that I could decide what is correct spring or ramp angle. I know you much more aware about these things than many other coaches, whom keep lectures in Youtube acting like an expert, even in the reality they do not necessary understand what they are actually trying to teach for the people. Maybe I am one of those  . I wish I would have your knowledge from the skating.
   
I have seen quite many skates over the years and I have hold shimmed skates on my hand. Ones or twice I have found steel washers under the heel plate, but in those cases washers were sink in to the heel so that you could see them only after removing the blade, so it didn’t keep ramp angle “original”. I have not either seen skates where soles or heels would be ground, except one pair what I did grind by my selves. It was the first and last time when I use grinding to fit blade in to the boots.  I do not want to say that it’s wrong to grind them. That just isn’t the way how I want to do things. Shimming is not either my way, even I can understand why some people want to do that.

It’s probably easier to know whether this is a design feature if you see a lot of the same brand of boots.

Picture I shared in my first post is extreme case. It’s more normal to see about half of this shown gap. The main message is that gaps exists and for those people need to be prepared if they plan to mount blades themselves.  Another lesson is that blade mounting is not such a plug&play job like in the manufacturers videos. Gaps exist in all boot brands, so this is not just a Edea related issue.

https://skatesus.com/product/edea-power-wedges/

This was very interesting. I have never seen this before, but makes sense on roller skates. This might be quite new product as in the past Edea was making planar boots for rollers skates. I believe that have wanted to get rid of planar boots so that Ice and Roller skates are using same boots (cost saving). Link below is not working anymore, but proofs that I am not suffering from bad dementia. Planar boots has exists in the past.
https://edeaskates.com/en/edea-pattini-a-rotelle/caratteristiche-tecniche/planar.html