New boot questions

[madionice]

     I started lessons last year, but I’ve been skating most of my life. My first boots were Jackson Mystiques with the stock blades, but I’ve started working on jumps and they suddenly started breaking down, and quite rapidly too, so I did weeks worth of research (to the point that my dad was telling me to cut it out or my brain would be nothing but figure skating) and finally ordered new boots. I chose the Jackson Premiere’s (not the Fusions), and the Jackson Protege blades. I have some questions regarding my new boots so I thought it would be a good idea to ask around on here. For reference, I am 19 y/o, 5’7” and 130 lbs, wearing 7 1/2 boots in C width, and I recently started working on my singles. I don’t consider myself to be a rough skater but I get fairly good height on my jumps. I currently skate 2x/week for 3hrs each, but over the summer I anticipate skating almost every day, as I work at a rink back home.
     1) Did I overboot? Will the jump in stiffness ratings (15 to 65 stiffness) be a big issue? I could have gone with the Debut’s or the Competitors, but I’ve had some issues with my ankles in the past so I figured the extra support might not be a bad thing.
     2) Sizing. I was fitted at a pro shop because although my feet aren’t growing, I noticed the toe boxes in my Mystiques are a little wide, so my toes move around more than they should. I assumed I’d be sized for a B width with that in mind, but the lady at the pro shop sized me for a D width, much to my confusion. I ordered my new boots in a 7 1/2 B, so was I right to trust my initial thoughts? (She also sized me as a 7, but when I tried on some of the Eite Pro’s (DJ5320) my toes felt fairly cramped)
     3) Heat molding. I am getting my boots heat molded once they arrive, so does anyone know how much of a difference that can make in the width, just in case they are a little snug around the ball of my foot?
     4) I’ve heard from one source that Premiere’s are only rated through axel and some of the doubles, but I saw somewhere else that they can be used through triples (not that I see myself getting that far, at least not in the lifetime of these boots). Can anyone say for sure what they are really rated for? (Keeping in mind I’m a lighter skater and not overly aggressive on my boots)
     5) Minor cosmetic staining. The seller of my boots noticed some staining on the white leather of one of the boots (even though they are brand new in the box) and told me this, saying he would try to remove/cover with polish, and would give me a discount for the stains if I still wanted the boots. I figure they’ll be scuffed and scratched within a few months of me using them so minor cosmetic issues now aren’t a huge deal for me. How much of a discount should I expect? My parents warned that the seller may try to low-ball and that I should counter his offer, but what would be a reasonable discount for this?

[supersharp]

My guess is that would be a good boot model for you. Definitely on the stiff side, so when they show up and you try them on, make sure you don’t feel like your ankles are in a cast. If you can press into the tongue of the boot and create the ankle band knee bend you are accustomed to, you’ll be fine.  I doubt they will last long enough for you to get to triples,so I wouldn’t worry about that.  At your size and weight, those boots can support doubles without breaking down (but they will wear out over time).  A lot of the kids at our rink wear this boot and it seems to work well for a range of skill levels.

Size...make sure you get the right length-width combo. Worth it to re-order and wait if necessary.  If your toes felt cramped in the 7, was it because they hit the end, or because they were squeezed on the sides?  Many people end up in a longer size to accommodate width.  The blade is set on the boot at the front, so if your boot is longer than needed, your blade (and rocker and toe pick) will be set further forward under your foot than is ideal.  Obviously, it’s not crippling...but if you buy the correct length of boot and have the blade mounted at the front of the boot, you will be able to use the stronger parts of your foot to control fine movement rather than using the just the tips of your toes when a solid press of the full toes is more helpful, for example.

Very exciting to get new skates, I hope you love them!

[FigureSpins]

Just for my understanding: you went to a pro shop to be measured, but you bought these skates online?  Were they sold as new or used? If they were used, they won't be as stiff as the new ones.  You can't always try on one model of skate and expect the same fit in another model. Manufacturers usually group their skate models by purpose.  For example, the Mystique was at the lower end of the scale in terms of stiffness within the "entry-level figure skating" group, which also included the Artiste and Classique models.  As such, they used the same "Last," which is a model of the foot that sizing was based on.  In that group, which I remember as "MAC," the Mystique was the lowest-stiffness and the Classique the highest.

Skaters who went from the MAC skate group to Freestyle boots (for example) found that the fit was different.  That's because a different Last was used to size the Freestyle boot.  This is just FYI, but you may find that the new skate is too small/tight. 

What jumps can you do currently?   The Mystiques have less support than the other models you mentioned.  I've worn the Competitors and they're pretty stiff, so it will take you a while to break in Premieres if they're new.  (Age isn't kind to leather, so they may actually be more stiff now if they're been stored for a long time.)  A skate tech I work with told me he can stretch boots 1 size larger and 1 width wider, if that helps.  If you didn't buy the skates from the pro shop, they'll charge you for that service, so put that in your budget.

If the boots are uncomfortably tight, your toes are pressed against the front or the ball of your foot is "squished," return the skates for a credit because they'll never fit properly.

I have a bias against the new Fusion soles, so I'm all for the older version of the heel/sole on Jackson boots. (I feel that the pitch puts skaters forward over the toes, like ski boots.  That is a handicap when trying to do Moves that require backward skating with good posture, like power pulls, backward three turns and "step" patterns.)  That being said, if the skates do not have the Fusion sole, they're probably from 2018-2019 because they're old stock.  (As such, they should be at least $100 less than the current MSRP since the model has been discontinued.)

You can't compare old boots using current charts.  In this chart from 2018, the Premieres are rated for Pre-Prel/Prel FS in the US.  They were more stiff than the Freestyle model at the time and yes, they were rated for Axel through triples. 
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0020/1251/2308/files/Screen_Shot_2018-09-11_at_8.16.25_PM_1024x1024.png

It's not abnormal for boots to yellow while in stock, which is why a lot of pro shops don't keep inventory on hand.  I bought a brand-new pair of skates for one of my daughters and one of the boots was significantly yellowed and I ended up returning them to the seller.  One boot must have been on display in the shop, best I can figure, so they were different colors.  It was really noticeable on the ice and the yellowing could not be covered/removed without having the skates stripped/repainted, which is not worth the effort.  It would be better to get a different pair that isn't yellowed, but that's just mho.  If you can get well-fitted skates really cheap and are willing paint/decorate them to hide the yellow, you may feel differently.  (I'm not into decorated skates, so ymmv)

Hope it all works out.

[madionice]

If your toes felt cramped in the 7, was it because they hit the end, or because they were squeezed on the sides?

It was because my toes hit the end. They were snug around the ball, so I figured the same width but a half size up would work since I plan to heat mold them. Thank you for the advice!

[madionice]

Just for my understanding: you went to a pro shop to be measured, but you bought these skates online?  Were they sold as new or used?

Yes, I went to the pro shop because I'd found some models online through Kinzie's Closet and Cale on Ebay (who I've heard is very reputable), and wanted to make sure I was getting the right size and width before I purchased. The ones I ended up buying from Cale are new in the box. The pro shop was running quite low on boots, and only had a 6 in the Premieres, so she took my measurements and had me try on a 7 in the Elite Pro's.

[Query]

I don't know your specific boots. But if I understand them correctly, heat molding mostly doesn't affect the front of the toes. But I could be wrong.

I have always assumed that the front of the toes shouldn't touch the front of the boot, because there are many problems described in the medical literature related to that. But some people disagree, and rely on that contact for jumps.

Perhaps you won't know how well they fit and work for you until you get them, and have them heat molded.

Since you didn't buy the boots from the shop, expect the shop to charge for heat molding - and if the blades don't come mounted, for mounting. Even if they come mounted, expect to pay for any necessary offsets and/or mods to blade position and shape. In some cases, when you order boots from a shop, they are also willing to help you with fit problems. Sometimes mail order discounts don't end up costing less in the end. I generally try to save money on things, but I don't personally think boots are the best place to do that - I would go to the best fitter I can find instead. But, hope for the best.

I'm not familiar with Cale. I hope that if you have problems with what you ordered from them, they handle them well. Perhaps you can tell us more once they come? Did Cale supply both boots and blades?

If you have fit problems once the arrive, maybe we can help.

[Query]

Also, "cale" is not currently a seller name on eBay. Can you be more specific?

[madionice]

I don't know your specific boots. But if I understand them correctly, heat molding mostly doesn't affect the front of the toes. But I could be wrong.

I have always assumed that the front of the toes shouldn't touch the front of the boot, because there are many problems described in the medical literature related to that. But some people disagree, and rely on that contact for jumps.

Perhaps you won't know how well they fit and work for you until you get them, and have them heat molded.

Since you didn't buy the boots from the shop, expect the shop to charge for heat molding - and if the blades don't come mounted, for mounting. Even if they come mounted, expect to pay for any necessary offsets and/or mods to blade position and shape. In some cases, when you order boots from a shop, they are also willing to help you with fit problems. Sometimes mail order discounts don't end up costing less in the end. I generally try to save money on things, but I don't personally think boots are the best place to do that - I would go to the best fitter I can find instead. But, hope for the best.

I'm not familiar with Cale. I hope that if you have problems with what you ordered from them, they handle them well. Perhaps you can tell us more once they come? Did Cale supply both boots and blades?

If you have fit problems once the arrive, maybe we can help.

I'm mostly concerned about the effect that the heat molding will have on width at the ball. 7 1/2 will definitely not be too short, but I am worried about the width.  Cale mostly sells figure skating boots and inline skates/wheels/earings/etc. His name on Ebay is skatercale.

[Query]

While I've only heat molded my own boots, I personally doubt that heat molding them will make them tighter at the balls. The real question is whether they will make them less tight.

But you went from 7.5C to 7.5B - which means, if Jackson follows the regular pattern that I found for shoes online, that your boots will be 1/4" less wide. You may have a very tight fit width-wise, at the ball, if your old ones were already pretty snug there.

Also, each pair of boots, even if they are sized the same, is likely to be a little different, in most brands. I don't know the reasons for that.

I assume you mean at the ball, but right at the bottom of your foot, not higher up right? Higher up is easy, and most heat moldable boots can handle it. But right next to the sole, may not be moldable.

Jackson's video

https://jacksonultima.com/pages/boots-products#2000SeriesBoots

does not say exactly where the heat molding material is, so it is hard to guess whether it includes the ball at the bottom.

I think that video implies spot punching - where the fitter uses a machine to physically stretch out the material in spots - might cover that area - but maybe not - again it is hard to guess if you are talking about the area closest to the sole of the boot, which might not be stretchable. I have personally punched my own boots around my toes and ankles this way - but the area punched wasn't immediately next the lowest part of the boot, which is of course harder to stretch, because the outsole and midsole don't stretch, on any boots that I know of.

If it is still too snug there, you can try to make yourself a custom insole that is thinner than the one that comes with the boot, especially at the ball. That might or might not work. In particular, it places your foot lower down in the boot - which might be thinner or wider. You could also try adding a little extra thickness, or just placing a thin dollar store insole (or for temporary test purposes, a thin piece of cardboard cut to the shape of the bottom of your foot) on top of the old insole. In most cases that makes for a tighter fit - but if the only part that is too snug is right at the bottom of your foot, and there is room above your foot, it is barely conceivable it might help. I've never heard of anyone trying that, but in theory it might help.

It also is just barely possible that a thin rigid (probably heat moldable) insole or orthotic could push outward on the fabric of the boot there, so that your foot doesn't have to press it outwards. I did once have such insoles make one of my pairs of boots too large for me in exactly that fashion.

But until you get your boots and try them, it is really hard to guess anything.

This type of problem is the reason a lot of people are willing to drive 100 to a few hundred miles to a store where they can actually try out their boots before buying them, and why they don't mail order. It's outrageously expensive and time consuming, but some of us have had no end of foot problems with boots that didn't fit.

I hope yours do fit!

P.S. If you have been skating most of your life, but shortly after taking lessons, they started to break down, there are a few obvious possible reasons:
1. Maybe you are skating more.
2. Maybe you are doing more difficult things. Jumping, and deeper edges, both put a lot of stress on boots. (I'm not suggesting you don't do those things.)
3. Maybe the pain of the tight fit meant that you laced less tightly - which often makes skates break down very quickly. I used to work at a skate counter, and people sometimes completely broke down rental skates in one session, because they didn't lace tight enough.
4. Maybe they were simply getting ready to break down.