Sharpening Discussion re: John Wilson Phoenix Blades (2020)

[Query]

My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz?

This is all hypothetical for now.

But

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LCIKcnkQjM
and
  https://www.facebook.com/pg/johnwilsonblades/posts

both say

quote]46% lighter than traditional blades, with a full carbon fibre body and stainless steel runner - it's the lightest blade ever made.[/quote]

I get that your question was rhetorical, nonetheless. I don't know how much lighter they claim Revolution are than traditional blades, but if you do, and the weight of your current blades, you can figure out approximately how much lighter.

Do you feel that the weight of a blade (even, traditional vs Revolution) significantly affects your skating?

Other people here have said the carbon body of the revolution blades makes for a softer landing (or something like that). I wonder if the same will hold true for Phoenix blades.

The lack of hollow grinding (presumably, on the sides, like a hollow ground knife) only affects weight, not the interaction with the ice, and maybe would make the runners very slightly less strong. So, aside from weight, which you are already considering, you can ignore hollow grinding.

But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?

Anyway, I think what John Wilson is doing makes a lot of sense. The less information is available, the more interested people will be in finding it out. So minimal information is a form of advertising.

[Bill_S]

But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?

With my set of standard Gold Seals, you are correct. The side honing didn't extend to the skating edge. It would take quite a few sharpenings to grind off enough to reach the side hone, IIRC.

The tapered blades (thicker at the front than the back) felt a little different to skate on, but it was very subtle. The thing that I remember most about my trial with Gold Seals was how easy it was to get a loud "rip" using just modest edges. They were noisy - something that I attribute to the tapered blade.

They had a longer runner than other blades I experimented with. But I liked them, and still have them. I finished the end of the last season on Pattern 99 blades just because they were the last ones mounted when everything closed. (It's still closed.   )

BTW, my Gold Seals (size 10.25") weighed 370 grams per blade.

[tstop4me]

The lack of hollow grinding (presumably, on the sides, like a hollow ground knife) only affects weight, not the interaction with the ice, and maybe would make the runners very slightly less strong. So, aside from weight, which you are already considering, you can ignore hollow grinding.

But do you feel tapered blades work for you better? Conversely, some people say they prefer parabolic blades. And other people say the differences in shape are too small to actually make a difference, other than psychological. At one point, I believe Bill_S did some measurements, and found that such shaping didn't actually extend down to the working surfaces, so presumably can't make any difference. Do I have that right, Bill?

We discussed these issues in Bill's previous thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8464.0).  Light weight is not a primary design factor for the traditional Gold Seals; otherwise, they wouldn't have the solid sole plates (no cutouts).  As far as I know, only the Gold Seals, and some copycats, have solid sole plates.  The purpose of the concave side honing is not to reduce weight.  Properly done, it reconfigures the edge geometry, reducing the included angle and increasing the bite.  On Bill's sample, it was not properly done (the sides in the critical chrome relief region that defines the working edges were parallel instead of concave), and the concave side honing was all for nought.  We don't know whether his sample was an outlier, or representative of Gold Seals.

Bill did find the taper in thickness extending to the working edges.  For a fixed ROH, the included angle is a function of thickness:  smaller included angle/more bite as the thickness increases.  At least in theory, a tapered blade provides more bite/less glide towards the front of the blade and less bite/more glide towards the tail of the blade.  But I think that would make things worse for moves such as back threes.  The parabolic profile (thicker towards the front, thinner towards the middle, thicker towards the tail) makes more sense to me, at least in theory, and if executed properly.

The Paramount version of the Gold Seal has parallel sides:  no concave side honing, no taper in thickness.  I know two freestylists/coaches who have skated on both the traditional Gold Seals (with tapered thickness and concave side honing) and the Paramount version.  One found no difference in edge control; one found better edge control with the genuine Wilson.  This, of course, is a very small sample; and there are other factors such as variation in manufacturing and variation in sharpening (these variations can easily negate any target design advantages).

[Query]

We discussed these issues in Bill's previous thread (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8464.0).

My comments and question were addressed to the o.p., not Bill. I wondered whether she felt there was a sacrifice getting parallel sided blades. Other than the "noise" effect.

The purpose of the concave side honing is not to reduce weight.  Properly done, it reconfigures the edge geometry, reducing the included angle and increasing the bite.  On Bill's blades, it was not properly done (the sides in the critical chrome relief region that defines the working edges were parallel instead of concave), and the concave side honing was all for nought.  We don't know whether his sample was an outlier, or representative of Gold Seals.

I too used to assume it was a way of increasing sharpness. It's been a technique discussed in that context at least since the 19th century.

But do you know of any blades that are hollow ground where the hollow extends down to the section that contacts the ice? The only blades I know that have that specify a hollow grind are a few from MK and JW. If even Gold Seals don't extend down - absent other information, I see know reason to assume Bill's are atypical - I would assume the others don't either - in which case it's all just hype, on modern blades.

[tstop4me]

But do you know of any blades that are hollow ground where the hollow extends down to the section that contacts the ice? The only blades I know that have that specify a hollow grind are a few from MK and JW. If even Gold Seals don't extend down - absent other information, I see know reason to assume Bill's are atypical - I would assume the others don't either - in which case it's all just hype, on modern blades.

Besides the Wilson Gold Seal, the only other blade I'm aware of that has concave side honing is the Eclipse Pinnacle traditional version (the lightweight titanium version doesn't).  I don't know whether the side honing extends all the way to the working edges or not. I've only seen the Pinnacle in passing at a pro shop; never did a closeup inspection of the edges.  The Pinnacle is Eclipse's nominal knockoff of the Gold Seal.  It too has a solid sole plate; so weight reduction is not a high priority. 

Until I read Bill's review on the Gold Seal, it would never have occurred to me to check those either.  I'm hoping that Bill's sample is an outlier (I never said it was an outlier, only that we don't know whether it's an outlier or not).  Concave side honing obviously adds production costs, and makes the blade more difficult to sharpen and check.  Hard to imagine that Wilson, or any other manufacturer, would intentionally go to all that trouble, and then consistently screw it up.  But we need field data to find out.  I'm not assuming anything.  We just don't know.  You're now assuming all the manufacturers of such blades are idiots or frauds (without any evidence other than Bill's single report on the Gold Seal).  Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't.  We just don't know, until we check a larger sample of blades.

I'm not aware of any MK blade with concave side honing.  There is the MK Phantom Special (which I've never seen), which MK claims is side honed to produce a dovetailed edge profile; again, ostensibly to produce an edge configuration with a smaller included angle and more bite.  But that also assumes that the dovetail extends to the working edge, and is not messed up in the critical chrome relief region.  Some of the Ultima blades also claim to have a dovetailed edge profile [just to add to an already confusing set of terminology, Ultima uses the term "tapered runner" to refer to a dovetail, not to a runner that is thicker towards the front and thinner towards the tail, as Wilson does].  Again, I've only casually viewed Ultima blades at a pro shop, never carefully inspected their edges. 

In the absence of field data, we don't know what the edge configuration of blades of yesteryear were either; i.e., did their concave side honing extend down to the working edges?  Why assume the concave side honing on only modern blades is empty hype?

[ETA:  Edited original for clarification.]

[Query]

In the absence of field data, we don't know what the edge configuration of blades of yesteryear were either; i.e., did their concave side honing extend down to the working edges?  Why assume the concave side honing on only modern blades is empty hype?

Because the 19th century description I found on edge shaping was aimed at describing how to shape the blades, and was not advertising hype by a manufacturer. And it included a dose of skepticism regarding whether or not various shaping techniques (including tapering, and if I remember right parabolic shapes, and various types of side honing) made a difference. I find it amazing that the debate continues to this day. It would seem like there would be a way to resolve it, and that there has been enough time to do so.

OTOH, if you look at the literature on knives and swords, there has been a lot of hype dating back millennia. E.g., some people said they sharpened swords and fighting knives sharp enough to shave with - but such narrow edges would presumably have been too fragile for serious swordplay. And the literature regarding swords gives them wills and personalities - so I guess you could claim there has always been a bit of hype in everything.

BTW, can you figure out a reason why a tapered blade would make a grinding noise? I have a theory, which may be completely wrong. I assume the noise is caused by a carfully controlled side skid. I hypothesize that all the blade blanks start out the same thickness. If so, the back of a tapered blade is narrower than most figure blades. So - if they have an ROH and degree of other types of sharpness appropriate to the front width, the rear width creates a less narrow edge angle, and less net sharpness - so it skids a little bit. Does that sound plausible? But I lack the data to support that hypothesis. I would need to take careful measurements of the blade to have a better idea of what might be happening. I'm not even sure everyone gets the same sound effects as Bill.

Or - what if Gold Seals really do have a will of their own? They growl to announce themselves to the world! 

[Arwen17]

OTOH, if you look at the literature on knives and swords, there has been a lot of hype dating back millennia. E.g., some people said they sharpened swords and fighting knives sharp enough to shave with - but such narrow edges would presumably have been too fragile for serious swordplay. And the literature regarding swords gives them wills and personalities - so I guess you could claim there has always been a bit of hype in everything.

Or - what if Gold Seals really do have a will of their own? They growl to announce themselves to the world! 

oh lord, this is strongly reminding me of a certain favorite show of mine: NOS4A2 where a "nosferatu" drives around a car from the 1930s. "The Wraith" car that literally has a personality of its own and can suck souls out of small children (because drinking blood to restore your immortality is so passé). The car is his "knife", a tool for his mental powers. And yes, my skates would definitely be my "knife", but rather amazing if their personality was so huge that they literally growled. I promise not to suck souls out of small children in the ice rink once my new skates arrive in the mail. *nods sagely*

[Query]

I like that show too! Who wouldn't feel sorry for poor innocent Millie? 

But Buffy was better.

I remember a tale of a sword that, once drawn, could not be sheathed without taking a life.

So, if you unsheath the same blades as Olympic Gold Medalists, you too will win metals. We look forward to the incredible progress you will attain in your Revolutions.

Good luck!

[OldGuyDown]

Warning about the Phoenix blades.

My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.

[Query]

My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.

Did your skate tech say why he couldn't sharpen them?

E.g., was it because he doesn't have wheels for stainless steel, or they don't fit any of his blade holders?

If the latter - It is true that the pictures make it look like Phoenix blades have mounting pieces that enclose the runner, so they stick out a little, unlike most MK and JW blades, but so do Jackson Matrix and Paramount blades. Does your tech have the blade holders to sharpen those?

I feel for you. It's not like they are cheap throwaways.

Have you skated on them? Regardless, were I you, I would contact JW,
  https://www.johnwilsonskates.com/contact-us
and ask if they will take them back, and also suggest they warn people about the problem.

[tstop4me]

Warning about the Phoenix blades.

My skate tech can't sharpen them & he is the only guy around. (with about 30 years experience & 4 different blade holders)
Company I bought blades from may not accept them back because they were mounted.
Possible $650.00 down the drain.
Not happy.

Wow!  This must be a shock, especially given the original Wilson Instagram statement (cited in Post #1):

"You spoke, and we listened.  Designed with parallel side datum flats for ease of maintenance. No unique jig required. 'Phoenix' by John Wilson Blades."

Yes, please ask your tech for the specific problems he encountered.

[Bill_S]

If the C.F. blade holders are no more than 0.5" thick and flat, I could sharpen them on my Wissota.

I can clamp up something that thick (I just measured) and can adjust the height of the blade holder to center them on the wheel.

If they are over 1/2" thick, and can't work with my stock blade holder, I could replace the threaded clamping studs with something longer.

[tstop4me]

If the C.F. blade holders are no more than 0.5" thick and flat, I could sharpen them on my Wissota.

I can clamp up something that thick (I just measured) and can adjust the height of the blade holder to center them on the wheel.

If they are over 1/2" thick, and can't work with my stock blade holder, I could replace the threaded clamping studs with something longer.

Just curious.  How thick a chassis will the holder handle, even with longer clamping studs?  At some point, the height adjustment will be the limiting factor.

[Bill_S]

Concerning height adjustment, here's my Wissota Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder adjusted for traditional blades...



Here's the holder when it is adjusted to minimum height where the preload springs coil-bind...



You can see that I have approximately 0.4" downward travel compared to the position for a standard blade. Keep in mind that holder travel only needs to be half the blade stanchion thickness, so it could handle 1/2" thick stanchions with ease.

Assuming that a standard blade is about 0.15" thick at the stanchions, then the additional adjustment travel could accommodate stanchions = 2*(.15/2 + 0.4) = 0.95" thick.

Here's a shot of the blade clamp on a 0.478" thick piece of scrap plywood.



In that shot, you can see that the clamping studs are 1/4-20 threads held in place with a jam nut on the bottom. It would be extremely simple to replace the existing studs with something longer to handle stanchions over 1/2" thick, which is my current limit. The existing clamping thumb nuts have blind holes, so I'd probably have to replace them with thumb nuts having through-holes for traditional blades if I did extend the studs. I could alternatively incorporate a short metal tube spacer between thumb nut and the top blade clamp for doing traditional blades if I had to extend the studs.

The other issue is whether the stanchion cutout geometry will fit over the studs. From photos of the new blades, they appear to mimic traditional blades in the position of the stanchion openings.



Compare those stanchion openings to a standard blade held in the clamp.



That doesn't appear to present a problem.


The Wissota skate holder has broad clamping surfaces that shouldn't damage the carbon fiber stanchions...

[Bill_S]

From Wissota about Revolution blades, which are a different blade than that being discussed...

NOTE: The MK/Wilson “Revolution” style blades with the carbon fiber blade holders will fit perfectly in our standard 3-D Three Dial Skate Holder.  They will not fit into the Elite Figure Skate Holder.

[Bill_S]

OldGuyDown - if you are reading this, can you answer two questions?

1) How thick are the carbon fiber stanchions?

2) Do the blade rivets stick up above the stanchion surface?

[tstop4me]

Here's my Wissota Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder set up for traditional blades...

Thanks for the thorough analysis, Bill.  Looks like the Wissota holder has excellent dynamic range.

[Bill_S]

I can also adjust the motor/grinding wheel height to raise it above the platen an additional 1/4" if needed. With the caveat that I don't have a sample here to test, I don't see any obvious impediment to sharpening Phoenix blades with this outfit.

Because OldGuyDown isn't a frequent visitor AFAIK, I also emailed Wilson about stanchion thickness and rivet flushness. I'll report back when I hear from them.

[Bill_S]

It is confirmed - the Wissota skate holder can handle Phoenix blades.

Here's the extensive reply that I received this morning...

Good morning, William!

My name is Katie McCarter and I am the U.S. Representative for MK / John Wilson Blades.

The Phoenix parallel datum points are closer to the rivets (which are flush to the blade),  but the Wissota 3D figure holder is designed for this style of blade. When preparing to sharpen, you will want to tap the blade in the toe and the heel and adjust the dials appropriately to get even edges and then proceed to sharpen the entire blade.

I have attached some photos below from the Wissota engineering team on how to properly clamp the blade. If you have any additional questions, please let me know!

Kind regards,

Katie

Katie McCarter| Director, Figure Skating Sales & Marketing

[tstop4me]

Bill, I'm really surprised  that:

(1) Wilson responded so quickly;

(2) Their reply was so thorough; and

(3) They actually collaborated with Wissota.

[Bill_S]

Maybe it's a slow season?   

Regardless, I'm pleased with their service.

[OldGuyDown]

Clamping the blade and aligning it for a straight grind is not the problem. (left & right wheels in the picture)

Problem comes from the "tilt" of the blade (wheel to the rear in photo)
How to determine that the grind is 90 degrees to the stanchions that have no flat areas.

After talking to 3 Wilson dealers, they told me that they would not recommend blade until issue is resolved.
One possible solution is removing blades and using heel portion of mount to determine 90 degrees to table.
We still don't know if the heel flat is parallel to blade surface because the blades themselves are "handed" (left & right)
This would require removing blades from boots for sharpening but it could be a solution.

The person who sold me the blades told my skate guy to "eyeball it & make sparks"
Presumably so they couldn't be returned.

[Bill_S]

You don't have to worry about leveling the blade to the table (within reason). You eyeball it, and then adjust the height of the skate holder to give even edges like you always do. I cobbled this quick illustration to show why...



Both situations above will produce even edges. The blade doesn't have to be perfectly level to get them. However it must be at the correct height for whatever geometry is used.

Even though you must re-adjust height with a thick stanchion like the Phoenix to get even edges, I almost always have to adjust height between various blades when I sharpen anyway. They are all different and I fine tune height for every pair.

A quick, non-destructive way to set-up for level edges is to take a Sharpie and blacken the blade hollow at the front and at the back. With the blade held very lightly against the grinding wheel, I give the wheel a little turn with my finger - just enough to remove a bit of the Sharpie ink, but no metal. If after the initial height adjustment the removed ink is close to center (both front and rear), you will be close to even edges when you grind. If not, tweak holder height to remove ink from the center of the hollow from both the front and the rear of the blade.

It gets me in the ballpark before I take my first sharpening pass. That's how I'd approach sharpening those blades.

[OldGuyDown]

Thank you Bill. 
I'll show my skate tech this illustration and see if it helps.

[tstop4me]

Clamping the blade and aligning it for a straight grind is not the problem. (left & right wheels in the picture)

Problem comes from the "tilt" of the blade (wheel to the rear in photo)
How to determine that the grind is 90 degrees to the stanchions that have no flat areas.

After talking to 3 Wilson dealers, they told me that they would not recommend blade until issue is resolved.
One possible solution is removing blades and using heel portion of mount to determine 90 degrees to table.
We still don't know if the heel flat is parallel to blade surface because the blades themselves are "handed" (left & right)
This would require removing blades from boots for sharpening but it could be a solution.

The person who sold me the blades told my skate guy to "eyeball it & make sparks"
Presumably so they couldn't be returned.

I'm missing something here.  According to the communication that Bill got from Wilson, the skate holder clamps onto parallel 'datum points'.  I'm assuming these are flats parallel to the sides of the runner.  If this is indeed the case, and if the tilt angles of the skate holder are properly aligned to begin with, then the only adjustment needed should be the height adjustment.  That is, the tilt angles could be set by clamping a traditional blade with parallel sides, or a reference steel plate with parallel sides.

Or is there some more complex geometric relationship between the datum points on the chassis and the runner?