John Wilson Phoenix Blades (2020)

[Kaitsu]

How good a job does the H.D.I. tool do of measuring rocker, and how does that work?

Reason why H.D.I gauge cannot measure radius of the blade profile is, that the dial gauge is not symmetrically positioned in to the middle of guiding pins. If it would be in the middle, in theory rocker radius could be measured just like with Sid Broadbent Rocker radius gauge. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_7moANVlY

You need to zero  dial gauge in to level of pins somehow and calculate the radius using trigonometry...or alternatively you should have calibration piece which radius in known. Distance from pins to dial gauge tip needs to be known. In case of H.D.I gauge, distance from pin to pin is longer than in Sid´s gauge. Even the dial gauge would be in the middle like I sketched, measuring would be difficult.

[Query]

When I suggested that they had the shape they had, to save weight, I wasn't agreeing with what they did. Just trying to come up with a vaguely plausible explanation for why they might have done it. (I didn't even consider that there might have been an artistic component to that design.) I agree with you that sharpenability is much more important than a saving few grams. I honestly think manufacturers need to take into better account the relatively poor training that MOST skate techs get, and the pressure they are under to sharpen as many blades/hour as they can.

The troubles that the OldGuyDown ran into getting Phoenix blades sharpened demonstrates the problem. The vast majority of skate techs couldn't sharpen them well, either because they lack the skill, and/or they lack the tools. One thing I admire about her original sharpener is that he knew enough to know that he couldn't do a good job on them - so she looked elsewhere, and eventually found someone who could. But I've run into a lot of skate techs who wouldn't understand they couldn't do a good job. I agree with you that blade makers should do everything they reasonably can to make it easyier to do well.

[supersharp]

As an adult skater and a sharpener, I have to agree that features that are added to enhance blade performance are only helpful if they don’t get in the way of getting a consistent, level sharpening. 

Side-honed blades, for example...as an engineer who comes from generations of fairly skilled craftsmen, I have a pretty good eye, but I find it frustrating trying to match the gap between the square and the sides on either side of the blade, particularly when I can observe that the angle is inconsistent once you get into the chrome relief due to grinding variation. I like to think my skaters on side-honed blades get a fairly consistent sharpening from me, but I doubt it’s as level as I produce on parallel blades. Dovetail blades like the Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance are so much better of a design for changing the bite angle.

I don’t really understand the obsession with lightness if it’s at the cost of inconsistent edges. Of course, I’m an ice dancer, so I might think otherwise if I was trying to do multiple-rotation jumps. Nonetheless, I still think a consistent takeoff edge seems pretty important, and a landing edge that holds you upright is equally desirable.

Finding someone who is dedicated to producing level edges, preserving your profile, and minimizing metal removal is already a challenge (see previous pages of discussion plus numerous other threads on this forum where the terms “the good sharpener” and “the bad sharpener” are used).  While I am pleased that JW seems to have thought about sharpening when designing the Phoenix, it seems like they still expect their skaters to have to hunt for a highly competent sharpener who also has equipment that accommodates the carbon chassis. A noble quest, no doubt, but should a skater have to work this hard just to get the skates sharpened? Skating  is difficult enough already, even with custom boots, level edges, and a good coach.

[Query]

Perhaps JW (and their parent company, HD Sports) assumes that anyone who chooses to spend that much money on skate blades will be a high level elite skater, and WILL use one of the relatively few skate techs who CAN produce good edges on them.

But if a significant number of skaters buy them and get poor results from them, I assume that hurts JW. From a purely business point of view, should JW and makers of other difficult-to-sharpen blades provide a warning in their ads that many skate techs will have trouble sharpening them, so that won't happen?

Dovetail blades like the Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance are so much better of a design for changing the bite angle.

Off-topic again: How do you know Ultima Apex Elite or the MK Dance use dovetail (i.e., wider at the bottom) shapes? I used and sharpened my MK Dance blades - and didn't notice the problems that might have caused. I can't find anything else online that says they use dovetail shapes.

[OldGuyDown]

After 10 hours on the blades I think I can give an initial impression...INCREDIBLE!

1) FAST. These things are faster than my patch blades (8.5' main rocker) ground to the same 1/2" ROH. They glide forever and I don't know why.

2) Very deep & controllable edges. This one surprised me on my back power pulls. I felt like I could reach down and touch the ice.

3) Super light. Basically, take the blades off the boots you have and that's what they feel like.

4) They do not flex. I don't know if this is good or bad but they just don't.

5) All 3's were very snappy. It took me one session to figure out that I had to check harder but no problems after that.

And now the bad news...
I have to put my old blades back on.
Coach said they might be OK for someone skating a program to very loud music but not for a moves test.
She said I sound like a skidding dump truck.

[tstop4me]

And now the bad news...
I have to put my old blades back on.
Coach said they might be OK for someone skating a program to very loud music but not for a moves test.
She said I sound like a skidding dump truck.

Yikes, so you now have pricey paperweights (and not even good paperweights because they're so light  )?  Anyone at your rink skate on Paramount or Ultima Matrix blades?  I'd be interested in how the noise levels of the Phoenix compare with the noise levels of those.

[Query]

From a purely business point of view, should JW and makers of other difficult-to-sharpen blades provide a warning in their ads that many skate techs will have trouble sharpening them

I just realized that was a pretty dumb suggestion. Almost no manufacturer advertises future service problems to end customers. I assume that the market does not reward such honesty.

But maybe they could warn their own dealers. AFAICT, it is typical for pro shops to make a larger profit by sharpening blades than by selling them. If a dealer sells a customer blades it cannot sharpen (let alone on a brand like JW or MK which has developed a reputation that their factory sharpening needs to be touched up by the dealer), not only have they lost that customer’s future sharpening business, but the customer is likely to mention the issue to their fellow skaters, who will assume the dealer to be generically incompetent and start a local trend driving business away from that dealer. That will lose the dealer money. So the dealer will hesitate to sell future products from that manufacturer. And THAT really is bad for the manufacturer’s business.

I don’t know whether OldGuyDown has suggested to other local skaters that they stay away from that dealer. But many people who read skatingforums may be driven away by this discussion from buying Phoenix blades, which COULD hurt business.

OldGuyDown, I’m glad that you found some things you love about these blades! By the way, I think that thin blades – and according to the ads, these, like MK Dance (which more or less dominate ice dance), are ground thin at the bottom – tend to go faster and glide longer; maybe the long glide would be great for Moves, if only you could put ear muffs on the judges.   I think the fast 3 turns and easier power pulls are part of being thin too, because you can change edges faster. But – I’m not completely sure of this cuz I can't spin well – I think super-thin blades are harder to center spins on (but make twizzles easier). I'm not sure if thin blades create any other problems, but there has to be a good reason why figure skating blades are substantially wider than hockey and speed blades, and why most other figure skating blades aren't thinline.

I wonder if thin blades affect noise level. In ice dance, I was told that you were supposed to hear the edges while rounding lobes, because that demonstrated you were pushing hard against the edges, and creating a deeper leaned edge, though the noise of scraping the toe pick was not considered good. So if for some reason thin blades make more noise, that might be an advantage IN ICE DANCE - but maybe not other disciplines.

[OldGuyDown]

I wonder if thin blades affect noise level.

I'm getting 3.75 mm on my very quiet school figures blades & 4.07 mm off the Phoenix ones.
Seems odd

[Query]

I'm getting 3.75 mm on my very quiet school figures blades & 4.07 mm off the Phoenix ones.
Seems odd

OK, so thinline blades needn't be loud.

It's so unfair that you bought the super-expensive, super-light, super-fast blades, worked so hard to get them sharpened right - and after all that, can't use them on your moves test.  :'( Maybe them will become popular enough that judges will eventually get used to the noise?

In This video all you hear is music!

So odd - I wonder why I can't find any other places on the web noticing loud noises from Phoenix blades. Though maybe not enough people have tried them yet for such things to be noticed.

https://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Wilson-Figure-Skating-Blades_c69.htm claims that Revolution Blades - also carbon fiber chassis, if you can call it that - are relatively quiet.

I'd be tempted to contact JW and see if they should be especially noisy. Maybe it is just a defect, due to a poor physical connection somewhere.

E.g., https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH5z5t3kY9I says one of the pins was loose on a new test blade, and there was also cracking in the carbon fiber. I could imagine that creating noise. However, that was only a pre-production model. But it is possible that JW is still working on creating good joints in these new blades.

[Isk8NYC]

Mod note: split topic into detailed technical sharpening and original product discussions.  Carry on.