Beginner Blades: 7 or 8 ft rockers?

[tstop4me]

We previously had a discussion of the MK Galaxy, a beginner blade with an 8' rocker:

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7572.0

Since then, there has been more changes in blade lines, and I'd welcome a fresh discussion of the pros and cons of different beginner blades; I have had various people ask me for recommendations.  In particular, I'd like to hear from coaches who teach beginners (children or adult):  Are they better starting off with 7' or 8' radius main rockers?

At one time the major blade companies (namely MK and Wilson) had 7' rockers on their beginner blades. Then Ultima came along and introduced 8' rockers on their beginner blades. In 2015, MK (which previously had maintained 7' rockers throughout their entire line) and Wilson introduced beginner blades with 8' rockers, while still offerring beginner blades with 7' rockers. Their current lines of beginner blades offer 8' rockers only. On the flip side, the entire Ultima line used to comprise 8' rockers, but within the past year or so they introduced a 7' rocker intermediate blade and a 7' rocker advanced blade, but no 7' rocker beginner blade. To my knowledge, the only major manufacturer with 7' rocker beginner blades left is Eclipse.

And then, when a skater moves from a beginner blade to an intermediate blade, the only intermediate blade with an 8' rocker is the Ultima Legacy. Wilson used to offer the Comet with a 8.5' rocker, but that disappeared from their website over the past year. Note that many discontinued model blades from various manufacturers are still available for sale.

So for the major manufacturers, we have the following sequence of rockers for currently listed freestyle blades (dance blades not being considered in this discussion):

Wilson. Beginner (8') -> Intermediate (7') -> Advanced (8') [Though I just noticed that there is no current listing for a beginner blade on the Wilson website; so maybe another update is pending]

MK. Beginner (8') -> Intermediate (7') -> Advanced (7')

Ultima. Beginner (8') -> Intermediate (7' or 8') -> Advanced (7' or 8')

Eclipse. Beginner (7') -> Intermediate (7') -> Advanced (8')

So, is there any advantage for a beginner blade with an 8' rocker? And does the following flip-flop sequence make sense

Beginner (8') -> Intermediate (7') -> Advanced (8') ?

[Query]

From what I can tell super-beginner figure skate blades (i.e., rental skate blades) are a little like hockey blades - relatively flat rockers in the center, gradually spiraling up to much more curved rockers at the ends. Of course, rental skates are sharpened so carelessly, the shape evolves unpredictably with time.

So, is there any advantage for a beginner blade with an 8' rocker? And does the following flip-flop sequence make sense

Beginner (8') -> Intermediate (7') -> Advanced (8') ?

Sort of??

A longer rocker is more stable, which beginners and those doing difficult jump landings appreciate, but which mostly isn't a big deal for intermediate skaters. It also lets you go faster, and glide longer on a push, both of which are very important at higher levels.

A shorter rocker let you turn more easily. Turns aren't needed for complete beginners, and are relatively easy for advanced skaters - though Ice Dance has more difficult turns than most freestyle, and the overwhelming majority of the world's top ice dancers use MK Dance, which has 7' rockers. (But MK Dance, and some other Dance blades, are also effectively ground thinner, which makes them faster and glide longer than the Coronation Ace and Ultima Supreme freestyle blades I've tried.)

Maybe tradition skews the statistics, because Ultima and Riedell are relatively new?

Plus, MK and Wilson give away or discount a lot of skate blades to top level skaters and coaches, which skews the statistics too.

And Ultima at least used to give pro shops a bigger profit margin (not sure if that is still true), which again skews statistics.

To complicate things even more, top level skate techs often modify the rocker profile, so what their top customers get often isn't what the factory intends. Of course, they have to remove a lot of steel to change rocker lengths, so maybe they prefer to start with something close to what they want.

But I'm not an advanced skater, barely an intermediate skater, so I don't fully understand the rational reasons for the changes, if there are any.

Of course you are only discussing main rocker, not the shorter spin rockers that are up front.

[Query]

Actually, I suspect the spin rocker profile and the position of the toe pick tend to determine the main rocker radius chosen for intermediate and advanced figure skating blades, to a great extent.

From the factory, all figure skates I know of are designed to have at least one detectable change of rocker curvature (sweet spot, sometimes confusingly called a rocker), which gives the skater feedback when they are on the sweet spot.

The intermediate and advanced Wilson blades I have looked at had two sweet spots up front, and therefore three different rocker lengths. So presumably they need a longer (8') main rocker length, so that you can still sense both of those sweet spots, whereas the intermediate and advanced MK blades I have looked at have only one sweet spot, so they only need a 7' main rocker length for the sweet spot to be sensed.

The intermediate and advanced Ultima blades I have looked at also have only one sweet spot - yet they use an 8' main rocker length. But they use a substantially smaller radius spin rocker, and the toe pick are less far ahead of the front of the foot than on MK and Wilson blades. Which means it is very easy to accidentally roll onto the toe pick, even though the 8' main rocker and shorter spin rocker mean the sweet spots are quite detectable. So they require finer motor control, which is probably somewhat easier if you have an even more pronounced and detectable change of curvature.

(I understand a few blades have a somewhat smaller rocker length in the tail. I don't know whether they are supposed to have a detectable sweet spot in the rear.)

Of course, many skate techs do such a bad job of sharpening, that you can't detect the sweet spot(s) after just one or two sharpenings. (If you want to keep detecting the sweet spots, you have to make a point of repeatedly re-emphasizing them when you sharpen.) So if you use such a skate tech, I admit this argument makes no sense. But I don't think blade manufacturers take that into account, except maybe for low end rental blades.

I haven't looked in detail at all blades from any manufacturers. Perhaps the rules I am applying don't apply to all of them, just for the ones I have looked at?

And I don't understand how rocker length and other shape parameters affects spin stability control. That might be a factor too - beginner and low intermediate skaters don't spin much. But I'm not sure what difference that makes.

But does what I am saying make sense - i.e., do you think that for non-beginner blades, the designed main rocker is at least partly based on the spin rocker profile (including the number of detectable sweet spots) and the toe pick position? In which case, trying to isolate out main rocker length, without considering the other factors - is problematical.

[tstop4me]

But does what I am saying make sense - i.e., do you think that for non-beginner blades, the designed main rocker is at least partly based on the spin rocker profile (including the number of detectable sweet spots) and the toe pick position? In which case, trying to isolate out main rocker length, without considering the other factors - is problematical.

This thread has gone waaay off track.  Let me respond to your question, and then I would appreciate getting back on track.

To first order, you can mix and match spin rockers and main rockers; the transition zone between the spin rocker and the main rocker will, of course, differ.  E.g., there are two advanced Wilson blades:  the Gold Seal and the Pattern 99; each has an 8’ main rocker, but substantially different spin rockers.  Want similar (not identical) spin rockers, but with a 7’ main rocker?  Then go to the MK Pro and Wilson Coronation Ace.

-------------------------------------------BACK TO ORIGINAL QUESTION--------------------------------------------------------------

Now if anyone can address my original question, I would appreciate any insights.  Summary:  For many, many decades MK and Wilson had 7’ main rockers for their beginner blades.  Ultima introduced beginner blades with 8’ main rockers at some point (don’t know the year).  Apparently they made some headway into the market, because MK and Wilson responded with beginner blades with 8’ main rockers in 2015 (while still keeping 7’ models to give skaters a choice).  Over the past year or so, MK and Wilson have dropped their 7’ models.  Usually this is done in response to sales.  So now Eclipse is the sole holdout with 7’ rockers in their beginner blades.  My main question, What’s changed?  I don’t know whether blade manufacturers cook up designs on their own, or whether they get feedback from coaches.  Have coaches discovered that Ultima was right, and that beginners are better off with 8’?

At the same time, for intermediate blades, 7’ remains the standard.  The Ultima Legacy was the exception with 8’.  But apparently enough customers shied away that in the past year or so, they introduced the Ultima Legacy 7 with 7’ .  And Wilson appears to have dropped the Comet with 8.5’; leaving the original Legacy, now rebranded Legacy 8, as the only intermediate blade with 8’.

[Query]

At one point, I asked some questions of MK, Wilson, and Riedell. MK and Wilson didn't respond, but the main skate sharpener at Riedell did. You can always try contacting them.

Many good figure skaters and coaches discuss which blades to use with skate techs they trust.

In turn, some of those skate techs do give some feedback to blade makers - e.g., Mike Cunningham.

If you can't get answers to your questions from blade makers, I would guess that first class skate techs might be a good resource to ask questions of.

Another of the world's best skate techs has a page for asking questions: http://www.askmredge.com - I spoke to him over the phone once about some other aspects of blades, and he was very informative.

Of course, I don't know how much attention the blade makers pay to skate techs. But the skate techs are their direct customers, so it would certainly make sense to talk to them.

The good figure skate techs, in my experience, are happy to answer questions, if you come to their shop at a non-busy time. I've had extended discussions with many of them.

If you get any responses from blade makers or skate techs, I at least would love to hear them. It's very hard to find authoritative sources on blade shapes, and what they are supposed to do.

[Nate]

It doesn’t matter.

Skater will adjust to whatever they’re given.

Some may have preference, but you really can’t know that until you use both - and at that point you are dealing with comfort bias.

Used to skate in different boots, one with MK Pro and another with Eclipse Infinity. Never noticed any difference. The boots were a much bigger factor than the blades (footbed profile, etc.).

< 5 minute adjustment and I could do everything in either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FigureSpins]

For many, many decades MK and Wilson had 7’ main rockers for their beginner blades.  Ultima introduced beginner blades with 8’ main rockers at some point (don’t know the year).  Apparently they made some headway into the market, because MK and Wilson responded with beginner blades with 8’ main rockers in 2015 (while still keeping 7’ models to give skaters a choice).  Over the past year or so, MK and Wilson have dropped their 7’ models.  Usually this is done in response to sales.  So now Eclipse is the sole holdout with 7’ rockers in their beginner blades.  My main question, What’s changed?  I don’t know whether blade manufacturers cook up designs on their own, or whether they get feedback from coaches.  Have coaches discovered that Ultima was right, and that beginners are better off with 8’?

At the same time, for intermediate blades, 7’ remains the standard.  The Ultima Legacy was the exception with 8’.  But apparently enough customers shied away that in the past year or so, they introduced the Ultima Legacy 7 with 7’ .  And Wilson appears to have dropped the Comet with 8.5’; leaving the original Legacy, now rebranded Legacy 8, as the only intermediate blade with 8’.

One point to consider is that MK and Wilson cornered the market and each had 2-3 different blades for different purposes.  (I think they were separate companies that merged, but I could be wrong.)   When competition grew from other companies, MK/Wilson had to streamline their models in order to survive.  I also think the variations in blades back in the day were more noticeable because everyone did Figures.  IMHO, people "felt" the blades more than skaters today - that was one of the reasons that MK/Wilson blade models came in sets - skaters could choose the Pattern 88 for Figures, Pattern 99 for Freestyle and Dance 99 for Ice Dance.

By "beginner blades," do you mean all-purpose low-end blades that are for the lower levels of learn to skate? Jackson/Ultima started the 8' trend at this level, I think because it was cost-effective for them to produce.  Maybe it's tied to the blanks they use, or sharpening and profiles, but I think it's probably easier and cheaper to produce the 8' rocker across all their blades.

In Jackson-Ultima's marketing and promotion, the 8' rocker for beginners is touted as giving the skaters more stability. I believe MK and Wilson recognized that skaters couldn't tell the difference at the lower levels any more, so they started producing the current blades for skate sets at 8' using the same marketing approach that Jackson/Ultima created.

Among my students, I've found that many benefit from the 7' rocker at the lower Freestyle levels, especially when coming from a stock 8' blade.  The Ultima Mark IV to Wilson Coronation Ace is an easy transition and I've seen spins and turns become easier and faster.  Jumps improve because of the larger, lower toe picks.

Switching a skater from 7' to 8' only works at the higher-levels when they're working on Flying Spins/Axels and putting in the ice time to master the skills.  Otherwise, the bigger rocker becomes difficult to adjust.

[Nate]

In my experience, that is more marketing than anything.

When switching, you’re likely also taking on a number of additional design variances:

1. How the curves are places/configured on the rocker.
2. Pick Cluster
3. Tapering
4. Side Honing
5. Stanchion Height
6. Tail Length
7.  Blade Weight

All of which, IMO, are bigger factors than rocker radius - at least in my experience.

The blades on super cheap skates aren’t good, and likely aren’t even manufactured to tight tolerances. They are not a good basis for comparison.

I also don’t think the elements you’re working on is a factor, at all. I think what matters is what blade the skater feels comfortable on, based on biological and mechanical factors specific to that skater.

[tstop4me]

One point to consider is that MK and Wilson cornered the market and each had 2-3 different blades for different purposes.  (I think they were separate companies that merged, but I could be wrong.)   When competition grew from other companies, MK/Wilson had to streamline their models in order to survive.  I also think the variations in blades back in the day were more noticeable because everyone did Figures.  IMHO, people "felt" the blades more than skaters today - that was one of the reasons that MK/Wilson blade models came in sets - skaters could choose the Pattern 88 for Figures, Pattern 99 for Freestyle and Dance 99 for Ice Dance.

By "beginner blades," do you mean all-purpose low-end blades that are for the lower levels of learn to skate? Jackson/Ultima started the 8' trend at this level, I think because it was cost-effective for them to produce.  Maybe it's tied to the blanks they use, or sharpening and profiles, but I think it's probably easier and cheaper to produce the 8' rocker across all their blades.

In Jackson-Ultima's marketing and promotion, the 8' rocker for beginners is touted as giving the skaters more stability. I believe MK and Wilson recognized that skaters couldn't tell the difference at the lower levels any more, so they started producing the current blades for skate sets at 8' using the same marketing approach that Jackson/Ultima created.

Among my students, I've found that many benefit from the 7' rocker at the lower Freestyle levels, especially when coming from a stock 8' blade.  The Ultima Mark IV to Wilson Coronation Ace is an easy transition and I've seen spins and turns become easier and faster.  Jumps improve because of the larger, lower toe picks.

Switching a skater from 7' to 8' only works at the higher-levels when they're working on Flying Spins/Axels and putting in the ice time to master the skills.  Otherwise, the bigger rocker becomes difficult to adjust.

Thanks, FigureSpins.  This is the feedback I was looking for.

(1) Yes, MK and Wilson merged in 1997 under the parent of HD Sports.  This merger well predates the change in their beginner lineup from 7' to 8', starting in 2015.

(2) So, as a coach, do you have an opinion whether a beginner is better starting off on a 7' or 8' rocker, or whether it makes no difference at all?  I suppose the question is somewhat moot unless the skater is starting off with Riedell boots.  If a skater is starting off with Jackson boots, then it's not until the Debut model that the boots are sold separately from the blades.  Below that model, Jackson sells their boots only as a kit pre-mounted with a beginner Ultima blade (all 8'); not many skaters or their parents are willing to swap out the stock blades that they've paid for.  Riedell is more flexible in its marketing.  For their beginner boots (except for the cheapest ones), the skater has a choice of buying the boots alone or pre-mounted with a beginner Eclipse blade (all 7').  So for a skater buying a beginner Riedell boot, do you have a preference whether they should choose a 7' or 8' blade?  [I'm assuming that not many people buy a Harlick, SP-Teri, Edea, or other brand boot (at least in the US) and mount beginner blades on them; but I could be wrong.]

[FigureSpins]

I wasn't sure when they merged - I skated in the 1980's and early 1990's when they were still separate competitors.

For rookies, it epends on whether or not the beginning skater is growing.  If they're still growing, either is fine below Freeskate 2 because they'll either outgrow the skates or outskate the boot.  The low-level boots don't always hold up, especially if the skater is tall or heavy.  I am rarely asked for input at this level, although I do try to help with finding good used skates.  Adults need a boot with support, even at the beginning levels.  (Not overbooting, but not "softees" as my skate tech calls them.)

If the skater's really committed and shows promise, I lean towards the 7' rocker if there's a choice available.  A lot of savvy beginners find used skates with good blades that are gently used, so it is possible to find a beginner on a Jackson Freestyle with an MK Pro blade.

Most parents don't want to invest in good skates right away, which is understandable.  The lowest-level skate set from Riedell, Jackson or another "good" brand are always better than the abused rental skates.  If a skater's doing okay on rentals in the Basic 1-6, I don't make a big deal out of their equipment.  It gives the kids a complex, lol.

When they're ready for Pre-Freeskate or FS 2, I mention getting a better blade and stiffer boot.  I tend to use the 7' rocker as a remedy for skaters who are having trouble with spins and turns - it usually helps them.

[tstop4me]

I wasn't sure when they merged - I skated in the 1980's and early 1990's when they were still separate competitors.

For rookies, it epends on whether or not the beginning skater is growing.  If they're still growing, either is fine below Freeskate 2 because they'll either outgrow the skates or outskate the boot.  The low-level boots don't always hold up, especially if the skater is tall or heavy.  I am rarely asked for input at this level, although I do try to help with finding good used skates.  Adults need a boot with support, even at the beginning levels.  (Not overbooting, but not "softees" as my skate tech calls them.)

If the skater's really committed and shows promise, I lean towards the 7' rocker if there's a choice available.  A lot of savvy beginners find used skates with good blades that are gently used, so it is possible to find a beginner on a Jackson Freestyle with an MK Pro blade.

Most parents don't want to invest in good skates right away, which is understandable.  The lowest-level skate set from Riedell, Jackson or another "good" brand are always better than the abused rental skates.  If a skater's doing okay on rentals in the Basic 1-6, I don't make a big deal out of their equipment.  It gives the kids a complex, lol.

When they're ready for Pre-Freeskate or FS 2, I mention getting a better blade and stiffer boot.  I tend to use the 7' rocker as a remedy for skaters who are having trouble with spins and turns - it usually helps them.

Great info.  Thanks.