If I can't get an outside edge, and fall insiide on spins?

[tstop4me]

I'm hoping that I can fine tune it using tape / moleskin, even if it means a lot of trial and error. I have some arch supports I can cut down, and some thin moleskin, plus KT tape if that could be used?

I'm not familiar with KT tape.  The issue is, if you want to limit yourself to the materials you have on hand, how many thin layers would it take to build up a total layer of up to 1/4" (or maybe even 3/8") thick.

[Query]

If your insurance won't cover it, you could spend more on the exam and inserts than your boots! From my insurance company:

Podiatrist exam "Evaluation and management of an established patient in an office or outpatient location for 25 minutes."
Billed: $251.00 (the charge if I didn't have insurance?)
Allowed: $112.69 (what Medicare allows to be charged?)
Facility charge: "Hospital outpatient clinic visit for assessment and management of a patient
Billed: $354.89
Allowed: $133.47
(But it's cheaper to go to a physician's office than to a hospital clinic.)

Diabetic inserts: "FOR DIABETICS ONLY, MULTIPLE DENSITY INSERT, MADE BY DIRECT CARVING WITH CAM TECHNOLOGY FROM A RECTIFIED  CAD MODEL CREATED FROM A DIGITIZED SCAN OF THE PATIENT,  TOTAL CONTACT WITH PATIENT'S FOOT, INCLUDING ARCH, BASE  LAYER MINIMUM OF 3/16 INCH MATERIAL OF SHORE A 35  DUROMETER (OR HIGHER), INCLUDES ARCH FILLER AND OTHER  SHAPING MATERIAL, CUSTOM FABRICATED, EACH"
Billed: $687 / foot (They gave me 3 inserts / foot)
Allowed: $84.33 / foot

(Non-diabetic inserts might be cheaper.)

Incidentally my shoes look like very good quality somewhat high cross training shoes: "For diabetics only, fitting (including follow-up), custom preparation and supply of off-the-shelf depth-inlay shoe manufactured to accommodate multi-density insert(s)"
Billed: $139 / shoe
Allowed: $46.17 / shoe

(I assume orthotic grade skate boots, if available, are much more expensive.)

[tstop4me]

If your insurance won't cover it, you could spend more on the exam and inserts than your boots! From my insurance company: ....

For Christy, the issue is moot since she doesn't have access to a qualified sports podiatrist with experience in fitting orthotics for figure skates.  For skaters who do, however, it is worth considering even if they don't have insurance coverage.  E.g., a pair of Ice Fly is US$885.  That's a lot of bucks down the drain if they're nonfunctional, but could be rescued with orthotics.  And if a skater is paying for private lessons and freestyle sessions, that's also a lot of bucks down the drain.  Not to mention all the wasted time and frustration and lack of progress and potential physical problems.

[Christy]

For Christy, the issue is moot since she doesn't have access to a qualified sports podiatrist with experience in fitting orthotics for figure skates.  For skaters who do, however, it is worth considering even if they don't have insurance coverage.  E.g., a pair of Ice Fly is US$885.  That's a lot of bucks down the drain if they're nonfunctional, but could be rescued with orthotics.  And if a skater is paying for private lessons and freestyle sessions, that's also a lot of bucks down the drain.  Not to mention all the wasted time and frustration and lack of progress and potential physical problems.

This is so true, and things have been very frustrating recently. I was really hoping that these skates would work for me after the problems with the previous ones, and as I have managed to improve things by moving the blade I'm really hoping that I'm now into a fine tuning phase

[Query]

Depending on where she lives in Canada, flying to an appointment with a qualified podiatrist might be much less than the cost of her boots.

E.g., about a dozen figure skaters in my geographic area were very happy with Dr. Paul Meissner, who practicis north of Baltimore, MD.

https://npiprofile.com/npi/1417947953

which says he charges $63-$192, but that could be out of date or inapplicable.

Another figure skater and various skate techs I met were happy with Dr. Jonathan P Contopasis, who practices in Kennet Square, Pennsylvania and Wilmington, DE:

https://npiprofile.com/npi/1114957651

which doesn't list prices.

Other sports podiatrists, like yours, are recommended by figure skaters too. Canada has so many good skaters, that it probably has some too.

I believe most adults can do an adequate job for themselves from a simple performance perspective, if they experiment and think analytically. Sport induced medical problems may be a different matter. Even my non-sports podiatrist helped - but I may see a sports podiatrist later.

[tstop4me]

E.g., about a dozen figure skaters in my geographic area were very happy with Dr. Paul Meissner, who practicis north of Baltimore, MD.

https://npiprofile.com/npi/1417947953

which says he charges $63-$192, but that could be out of date or inapplicable.

You really should read webpages through before citing them to others.  Note the following key points directly quoted from the first webpage you cited:

"The provider is registered as an individual and his NPI record was last updated 12 years ago."

"Last Update Date   12-21-2011"

"New Patients Visit Costs *
---
Established Patients Visit Costs *
---
* The physician office visit costs information is generated by statistical analysis of similar providers in the same geographical area. The pricing information above IS NOT the amount charged by this provider."

Similarly, the second webpage you cited shows "Last Update Date   03-26-2008", with the same caveat concerning costs.


ETA:  I'd also like to point out it's not a matter of a "one and done" visit.  There's at least an initial consult, followed by a casting or scanning, and followed by initial fitting and trial.   And then typically followed by at least one adjustment.  So a minimum of 3 visits, more likely 4 or 5.

[supersharp]

I agree that it is blade placement, sharpening, foot alignment in the boot, or (as is often the case) a little bit of each. 

Given that it is a Matrix blade, unless there is a maufacturing defect on the left blade, it is unlikely that the blade can be pulled into an arc on the bottom of the boot, which is helpful because it rules out one possibility.

Christy--could you please send us photos of:

• left and right boots (viewing straight down, looking at the blade on the sole)
  a view of the end of the left blade, looking at the tail but slightly down the hollow
  a view of the misfit where the screw had to pull the blade to the boot

Thanks!

[Query]

You really should read webpages through before citing them to others.  Note the following key points directly quoted from the first webpage you cited:

"The provider is registered as an individual and his NPI record was last updated 12 years ago."

"Last Update Date   12-21-2011"

"New Patients Visit Costs *
---
Established Patients Visit Costs *
---
* The physician office visit costs information is generated by statistical analysis of similar providers in the same geographical area. The pricing information above IS NOT the amount charged by this provider."

Similarly, the second webpage you cited shows "Last Update Date   03-26-2008", with the same caveat concerning costs.


ETA:  I'd also like to point out it's not a matter of a "one and done" visit.  There's at least an initial consult, followed by a casting or scanning, and followed by initial fitting and trial.   And then typically followed by at least one adjustment.  So a minimum of 3 visits, more likely 4 or 5.

Oh sugar! I've been using NPI ratings to help me figure out which doctors to go to. As you point out, that seems completely invalid. It's really hard to get reliable info on how good doctors are - the other ratings pages only gave ratings by patients - who for the most part don't know enough to rate medical specialists.

[Christy]

I agree that it is blade placement, sharpening, foot alignment in the boot, or (as is often the case) a little bit of each. 

Given that it is a Matrix blade, unless there is a maufacturing defect on the left blade, it is unlikely that the blade can be pulled into an arc on the bottom of the boot, which is helpful because it rules out one possibility.

Christy--could you please send us photos of:

• left and right boots (viewing straight down, looking at the blade on the sole)
  a view of the end of the left blade, looking at the tail but slightly down the hollow
  a view of the misfit where the screw had to pull the blade to the boot

Thanks!

Sorry, have just seen this and am currently travelling, so will try to get some pics next week.

However I have made a change that I'm hoping may help. I'd been so focused on the positioning of the blades and whether or not I could glide in a straight line that I had missed the fact that the "highly recommended" sharpener had rounded the back of both blades    The last time I tried the skates I found I could almost get onto an outside edge, but I kept feeling like I was falling backwards so took a close look at the blades and saw that they basically curved up at the back! I took them to my usual sharpener and he has partially fixed the problem, but said fixing it fully would mean the essentially new, now sharpened twice, blades would be almost end of life.

I have to say that all of these problems are making me consider stopping skating 

[Query]

The "highly recommended" sharpener made a beginner figure skate sharpener mistake, and basically destroyed your blades. I would complain, but it may not do you much good.

[Christy]

The "highly recommended" sharpener made a beginner figure skate sharpener mistake, and basically destroyed your blades. I would complain, but it may not do you much good.

Agree, but there's really no point as they aren't local. I travelled a long way specifically to see them, based on the recommendation of a supposed expert, and didn't check them immediately as I wasn't able to use them for a few weeks, then as I was having so many issues with the edges I didn't notice I was falling backwards 

[Query]

Oh my. I know Canada is a big country, and that the major highways don't go everywhere. I guess you are nowhere near the really good skate techs. I bet you won't "highly recommend" that skate tech...

It actually sounds like your local sharpener may know more about figure skates than the distant one. Or maybe he just listened to what you asked for?

With that big a mistake, he may have also destroyed your sweet spot (meaning the transition point along the length in the front between the more curved spin rocker, and the less curved main rocker, where you might roughly balance on spins).

Maybe it is worth learning to sharpen your own skates? Sure, there is a learning curve, and you could make minor mistakes. But if you try to be careful, it would be hard to do as bad as your skate techs have done.

If your ROH happens to be 1/2", maybe you could get by with an old (used) Berghman skate sharpener. They are cheap, and show up on eBay. Plus, they potentially remove a lot less metal than the powered sharpening machines, so you are less likely to make a really bad mistake at first than your techs have done, especially if you trace the initial profile (though that is now rather ruined), and try to maintain it.

It will be hard to figure skate in blades with rounded off backs. What condition are your old blades in? Maybe you can use them for the moment?

[AlbaNY]

Sorry, have just seen this and am currently travelling, so will try to get some pics next week.

However I have made a change that I'm hoping may help. I'd been so focused on the positioning of the blades and whether or not I could glide in a straight line that I had missed the fact that the "highly recommended" sharpener had rounded the back of both blades    The last time I tried the skates I found I could almost get onto an outside edge, but I kept feeling like I was falling backwards so took a close look at the blades and saw that they basically curved up at the  back! I took them to my usual sharpener and he has partially fixed the problem, but said fixing it fully would mean the essentially new, now sharpened twice, blades would be almost end of life.

I have to say that all of these problems are making me consider stopping skating 

I sharpened at our rink, just a bit really, and this is... wow. 
Rounding the tail of a figure skate?  And being highly recommended?  And basically killing new blades?  I'm angry on your behalf.   

I do want to say that I think people can adapt to their gear.  It may be harder to get used to new blades later, but you probably could adjust to the new profile of these.  I've recently seen dudes in hockey skates do huge waltz jumps and even toe steps that I could barely copy.  So, if you want to save money you probably could adapt, and then blame any crappy attempts at things ones the blades. 

[Christy]

I agree that it is blade placement, sharpening, foot alignment in the boot, or (as is often the case) a little bit of each. 

Given that it is a Matrix blade, unless there is a maufacturing defect on the left blade, it is unlikely that the blade can be pulled into an arc on the bottom of the boot, which is helpful because it rules out one possibility.

Christy--could you please send us photos of:

• left and right boots (viewing straight down, looking at the blade on the sole)
  a view of the end of the left blade, looking at the tail but slightly down the hollow
  a view of the misfit where the screw had to pull the blade to the boot

Thanks!

OK, I've got some pics, from the original (curved at the back of the blade!) sharpening, if I can work out how to post them. Does anyone know the process please? I've tried using the img link, but can't add a pic between the tags, so not sure how it works.

[tstop4me]

OK, I've got some pics, from the original (curved at the back of the blade!) sharpening, if I can work out how to post them. Does anyone know the process please? I've tried using the img link, but can't add a pic between the tags, so not sure how it works.

* Click on Reply to open the Reply box.
* At the bottom of the Reply box, click on +Attachments and other options.
* Under Attach, click on Browse.  Select the file you want to attach.
* Click "more attachments" to add additional files.

[Christy]

Thanks so much TStop4Me

I think these are the pics needed

[Kaitsu]

Such a blade positioning at the heel is something what is not typical. Especially left foot blade is positioned heavily to inside edge. I believe you have adjusted your blade to be like that, to solve your problem?

View angles of the pictures are not the best possible, but it seems also toe plates are not symmetrically positioned. Right foot blade is more outside edge than the left foot blade. This does not mean that they are wrongly positioned. It is something what I can be seen on the photo´s. However its good to keep in mind that adjusting the blade from the front has bigger impact than if you adjust the blade from the heel.

What I would do is, that I would dismount the blades and I would make center point markings to the boot soles using the template what I have shared here in the forum. I would position the blade runners in the middle of those markings. That would be my starting position. Then I would make the adjustments based on what you can feel on ice. I would probably keep the heel in the middle and adjustments I would do to the toe plate.

As you have Matrix blades, you need to find some way to mark blade runner center points to heel and toe plate.

You need to also ensure that hollow is ground in to the middle of blade before final mounting.

[Query]

I'm troubled that the plate doesn't fit against the bottom of the boot. There is a gap in some places.

The skate tech should have shimmed it (added extra material in appropriate places in between the plate and the boot) so everything would fit snugly.

I'm not sure of all the consequences of not doing so. But it would make sense that the blade would constantly be flexing a lot, on take-offs and landings, even on normal stroking - and that would very likely substantially reduce the lifetime of the blade - it might break while you were skating. That might even cause you an injury. In addition, you might not be in full control of your skating.

It's my feeling that any vaguely competent skate tech would have noticed this - it's extremely obvious.

How do you other folk feel about this?

[Kaitsu]

I'm troubled that the plate doesn't fit against the bottom of the boot. There is a gap in some places.
How do you other folk feel about this?

This is standard feature in Edea boots. About 70% of Edea boots where I have mounted blades, are suffering from the same issue. It can be solved with heating the boot with heat gun. Boot will get softer and then you can use screws to remove or at least reduce the gap. Without heating they look like this => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VNT2BPDutQ&t=16s

[tstop4me]

I'm troubled that the plate doesn't fit against the bottom of the boot. There is a gap in some places.

The skate tech should have shimmed it (added extra material in appropriate places in between the plate and the boot) so everything would fit snugly.

I'm not sure of all the consequences of not doing so. But it would make sense that the blade would constantly be flexing a lot, on take-offs and landings, even on normal stroking - and that would very likely substantially reduce the lifetime of the blade - it might break while you were skating. That might even cause you an injury. In addition, you might not be in full control of your skating.

It's my feeling that any vaguely competent skate tech would have noticed this - it's extremely obvious.

How do you other folk feel about this?

It looks like she's still on a temp mount.  Additional screws should reduce gaps.

[Christy]

Just to clarify it is a temporary mount and the blade positions are supposed to help with pronation, which is supposedly worse on one side than the other (although I've been told by other skate techs that I don't pronate).
I did some research as I was suprised at how the blade was fitted and found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgrfnsN9goM where the skate tech talks about the gap between blade and sole and this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywSRhUNgoes where a different skate tech talks about centering the blade on the boot not the sole as the soles are added later and sometimes not true.

Kaitsu, can you clarify your comment "You need to also ensure that hollow is ground in to the middle of blade before final mounting." Does it relate to the fact that the blades were rounded by the "expert" skate tech?

[tstop4me]

Kaitsu, can you clarify your comment "You need to also ensure that hollow is ground in to the middle of blade before final mounting." Does it relate to the fact that the blades were rounded by the "expert" skate tech?

That's another way of stating earlier advice we gave you:  if you're having problem getting on an edge, first thing to check is whether the edges are level (which requires the hollow to be centered between the inside and outside edges).

[Kaitsu]

Each skate tech has their own way to mount blades and specify the center point for blade mounting. BT guy was starting blade aligning from the stitches. I would not do that, but that is his way to start. I use my template. BT guy seems to be also much more skilled than I am. I do not have example similar X-ray vision, so that I could see how blade is aligned to the actual insole. Parallax error fools easily human eye. I know that following video is not presenting precisely BT alignment method, but it hopefully gives some idea that the BT way is not bullet proof either, like no any other alignment methods. https://youtu.be/X9aIWoddBd0

You need to start somewhere and then make corrections if needed. In your case you are suffering from the pronation, which may easily explain your blades alignment. I would anyhow mark blades current position to the boots. I would remove blades and then I would make new center point markings to the boots based on my template. If the blades "original" position does not match with my method, I would analyze what the difference in these two blade alignment means in your pronation point of view.

My point is that if you would bring skates to me, first things what I would do is that I would check that sharpened edges are even, means that hollow is ground to the middle of blade. Just like tstop4me clarified. Then I would compare blade previous alignment vs where I think the starting point for alignment should be. From that I would puzzle what to try next. To be honest, I have never fixed any pronation issues, so I am not probably right person to advice on this matter. My methods are more for "normal" foots.

What comes to the removing the gaps with screws, sometimes it works, sometimes not...like you can see from the video I linked in previous post.

[Christy]

That's another way of stating earlier advice we gave you:  if you're having problem getting on an edge, first thing to check is whether the edges are level (which requires the hollow to be centered between the inside and outside edges).

Aha, thanks for clarifying. I was so focused on the fact that the blades had been rounded at the back that thought the comment referred to that, but wasn't sure how.

[Christy]

I realize each skate tech has different methods, and I guess they work for their skaters because the skaters adapt to the first pair of skates and if the process remains the same then subsequent skates set up in the same way are normal to them.

Regarding the video, I did try looking to see if my blade was aligned with the insole, just in case that was the process the skate tech had used, but like you don't have x-ray vision! I guess if it works then great, but either way it doesn't appear to be how my blades were fitted as they are not aligned with what is my best guess of the center of the insole.

I can't test the skates for a few weeks but once I am able to I'm first going to try them as they are, with the freshly sharpened blades that my local tech tells me are definitely level, and which are now slightly less rounded at the back! I'll then use that as a benchmark so I know exactly how they feel before I try to make any changes, and I can track what I do and what the impact is.