Stanchion height on blades

[LunarSkater]

I'm in the process of ordering new boots and blades. My pairs partner/blade tech mentioned getting new blades with a higher stanchion height for better ease getting down into a death spiral. I haven't had much luck finding out information about this; Kinzie's Closet has a nice blade comparison chart, but it doesn't say what a standard height stanchion is. (Nor can I find much on recommended blades for pairs in general....)

Does anyone have any information they could send my way before I order my new blades? Thank you!

[tstop4me]

As far as I know, there aren't any standards for blades (except maybe for the mount length).  For freestyle, the one blade I'm aware of that is specifically advertised as having a high stanchion is the Wilson Gold Seal.  I have the Paramount version of it.  Compared to my Wilson Coronation Ace, the Paramount is ~1/4" higher (measured from the mounting-plate surface that mates against the boot to the edge of the runner; the Paramount mounting plates are thicker because they are made of aluminum instead of steel, so the total height is a fairer comparison).

ETA:  Since you are specifically interested in a high stanchion, if you consider another manufacturer's version of the Wilson Gold Seal, then  verify with the manufacturer what the stanchion height is and compare it to that of a genuine Wilson Gold Seal.  "Comparable to" doesn't mean "identical to" and can mean anything an advertising guy wants it to mean.  I was mainly concerned with the spin rocker when I bought the Paramount; I didn't check the stanchion height.

[Casey]

"Comparable to" doesn't mean "identical to" and can mean anything an advertising guy wants it to mean.  I was mainly concerned with the spin rocker when I bought the Paramount; I didn't check the stanchion height.

A bit of a hijack...   Did you move from Gold Seals to Paramount?  If so, how did it affect your spins?  I replaced stolen skates that had Gold Seals with a new pair (both sets of boots were custom from the same fitting) that had Paramount 440’s, and my spins got worse and never recovered.  I’m not clear on why this is - my best guess is that it has to do with the difference in blade material...

[tstop4me]

A bit of a hijack...   Did you move from Gold Seals to Paramount?  If so, how did it affect your spins?  I replaced stolen skates that had Gold Seals with a new pair (both sets of boots were custom from the same fitting) that had Paramount 440’s, and my spins got worse and never recovered.  I’m not clear on why this is - my best guess is that it has to do with the difference in blade material...

I never skated on genuine Wilson Gold Seal.  I went from Wilson Coronation Ace to Eclipse Aurora to the Paramount version of the Gold Seal.  So I can't give you a direct comparison.

Some factors that may have affected your spins.

(1) Paramount takes great pride in carefully replicating the spin rocker profile and pick pattern of Wilson and MK blades.  But, of course, even though Paramount uses CNC laser cutting, there is always the possibility of a screw-up on the spin rocker.

(2) The Wilson Gold Seal has concave side-honed blades and either a tapered or a parabolic profile (parabolic has been discontinued).  Paramount does not have any side honing, but is supposed to have a tapered profile (thickness near the pick is greater than the thickness near the tail).  The pair I got actually has uniform thickness throughout the length of the blade.  If you have a micrometer or caliper, could you check the thickness profile of your Paramounts? 

In theory, side honing provides more bite, allowing deeper edges without slippage.  In practice, I've heard some skaters say it does give them more bite, and other skaters say it doesn't make any difference.  Anyway, if you got deeper edges on the Wilson Gold Seal, that could affect your spin entry.

(3) I don't see how the material (440C stainless steel vs plain carbon steel) would directly affect your spins.  The material does directly affect sharpenability, however.  The 440C stainless is more difficult to sharpen.  If your skate tech does not have proper experience with it, he could leave you with messed-up edges or a messed-up spin rocker (sharpening problems are further aggravated by the fact that Paramounts don't fit in all skate holders for sharpening machines; and even if they do fit, the mounting is different from traditional blades).

Bill_S has a thread on a Canadian skate tech company called PBHE (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8360.0).  I find it odd that they say the following about stainless steel blades (http://precisionblade.com/index.php/glossary/)

Stainless Steel Blades

Stainless steel blades have a chromium content that causes the steel to curl preventing a clean sharp edge. Due to this PBHE does not currently sharpen these blades. Stainless has the advantage of being rust resistant but at a cost of reduced edge control. Stainless 440 C and AUS 8 has other specific grinding problems that have yet to be solved by grinding specialists. 


I disagree with this.  PBHE may have problems grinding high-end stainless steel blades, but these and similar grades of stainless steel have long been used for cutlery and for hockey skate runners.  But other grinding specialists have have learned how to sharpen them, as well as figure skate blades, properly.

[Casey]

(1) Paramount takes great pride in carefully replicating the spin rocker profile and pick pattern of Wilson and MK blades.  But, of course, even though Paramount uses CNC laser cutting, there is always the possibility of a screw-up on the spin rocker.

I wonder if Gold Seals, having a solid front plate making their balance a bit different, causes my weight to sit a bit farther forward on the blade than it does on the Paramounts...  Seems unlikely...

(2) The Wilson Gold Seal has concave side-honed blades and either a tapered or a parabolic profile (parabolic has been discontinued).  Paramount does not have any side honing, but is supposed to have a tapered profile (thickness near the pick is greater than the thickness near the tail).  The pair I got actually has uniform thickness throughout the length of the blade.  If you have a micrometer or caliper, could you check the thickness profile of your Paramounts? 

I am in the middle of a move, but I think I have a caliper somewhere to find later.  As far as I can tell by looking, however, the Paramount blade is not actually tapered.  I had tapered Gold Stars before and I could see that with the naked eye.

The Gold Seals I had were parabolic.  Bummer to hear that's discontinued...although I'd be more inclined to go with parallel to avoid having a variable ROH, that means I can't get the exact same blades that I had before, which I knew worked well for me.

In theory, side honing provides more bite, allowing deeper edges without slippage.  In practice, I've heard some skaters say it does give them more bite, and other skaters say it doesn't make any difference.  Anyway, if you got deeper edges on the Wilson Gold Seal, that could affect your spin entry.

I can get quite deep edges with the Paramounts - I have a 5/8" ROH so don't slip at all.

(3) I don't see how the material (440C stainless steel vs plain carbon steel) would directly affect your spins.

I don't either.  It doesn't seem that more rigid steel, or more rigidity from the aluminum carriers, would affect spins.  It's just all I can think of being different.

I disagree with this.  PBHE may have problems grinding high-end stainless steel blades, but these and similar grades of stainless steel have long been used for cutlery and for hockey skate runners.  But other grinding specialists have have learned how to sharpen them, as well as figure skate blades, properly.

The sharpening I have seems good and as I have only had them sharpened once or maybe twice, I wouldn't guess that the spin rocker is messed up, though I suppose it's a possibility.  They are still quite sharp and really don't feel like they need a sharpening any time soon, but if I look closely at the edges they don't look crisp and clean anymore.  If I find a sharpener who is comfortable with them I'll probably get a sharpening to reduce the ROH - I don't feel that I need it as deep with how well the blades hold a sharpening.  Again though, that shouldn't affect spins - I could spin great on freshly-sharpened Gold Seals with the same ROH as I have now.  The Paramounts *have* really impressed me with how long the sharp edges have lasted!

It's frustrating because blades are expensive, and we can't just try a bunch of different ones out to see what works best.

[tstop4me]

I wonder if Gold Seals, having a solid front plate making their balance a bit different, causes my weight to sit a bit farther forward on the blade than it does on the Paramounts...  Seems unlikely...

Given all the variables, that one does seem unlikely.

The Gold Seals I had were parabolic.  Bummer to hear that's discontinued...although I'd be more inclined to go with parallel to avoid having a variable ROH, that means I can't get the exact same blades that I had before, which I knew worked well for me.

(a) I forgot when the parabolics were discontinued, but it was relatively recent, within a year or two maybe.  Old stock is still available online, however; e.g., (https://www.shop.kinziescloset.com/Wilson-Gold-Seal-Parabolic-Figure-Skating-Blades-WGSParabolic.htm) still has a full selection of sizes.

(b) The other option for Gold Seals is tapered; there is no parallel option.  Regardless of the the thickness profile (parallel, tapered, or parabolic), the ROH is nominally constant along the length of the blade (except for inadvertent variations during grinding).  For a constant ROH, the edge angles (bite angle, included angle) vary with thickness.

I can get quite deep edges with the Paramounts - I have a 5/8" ROH so don't slip at all. ...
If I find a sharpener who is comfortable with them I'll probably get a sharpening to reduce the ROH - I don't feel that I need it as deep with how well the blades hold a sharpening.

Gee, 5/8" is usually considered quite shallow for freestyle.  But a friend of mine is a hi-level competitive skater, and her hollow is almost flat.  So I see how you consider it deep. [I assume you meant to say increase the ROH to get a shallower hollow.]

It's frustrating because blades are expensive, and we can't just try a bunch of different ones out to see what works best.

In the wise words of 5-1/2 year-old Edith Ann, "And that's the truth."

[Casey]

The other option for Gold Seals is tapered; there is no parallel option.  Regardless of the the thickness profile (parallel, tapered, or parabolic), the ROH is nominally constant along the length of the blade (except for inadvertent variations during grinding).  For a constant ROH, the edge angles (bite angle, included angle) vary with thickness.

Edge angle is what I meant...

Gee, 5/8" is usually considered quite shallow for freestyle.

Oops, I meant 5/16”!