skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: FigureSpins on January 13, 2020, 08:11:12 PM
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I'm volunteering at US Nationals next week. Anyone have burning questions for the boot/blade vendors that you'd like me to ask on your behalf?
I've confirmed that these vendors will be on the Arena Concourse, which is past the security checkpoint. (Meaning, they are not inside the open-access FanFest area.)
Jackson Ultima
MK/JW Blades
SP-Teri
Edea - being represented by Skates U.S.
Harlick
Riedell
Risport - being represented by USA Skates (?)
Not Attending:
Paramount
Power Twist
Still waiting for responses from these vendors:
Avanta
Graf
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What a thoughtful member! Here's a follow-up to a previous post on the Jackson 3D foot scanner (http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8488.0 Reply #5). I'd like you to ask the Jackson rep whether they plan to make their 3D foot scanner available to skate techs. It would appear to be a good selling point; but limiting availability to only sponsored Jackson events makes no sense. Thanks.
ETA: Question for Paramount (if they're there): Last year you finally realized that it's a big advantage if blades can be sharpened with standard equipment: you introduced the SA and SP blades with wider runners that can be held in a standard hockey jig. But these are intermediate blades available only in 420 stainless and only in a maximum length of 10". Your more advanced blades (that require special jigs) are available in a higher grade 440 stainless and in a maximum length of 11.5" (I wear 10.75"). Do you plan to make easier to sharpen advanced blades in 440 stainless and in longer lengths?
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Ditto. Yeah, I have no idea how long I'd have to wait until there might be a scanning event near me. If I had to guess, maybe next season's Skate America which is going to be in Las Vegas again and is a reasonable flight away. If I want another set of Jacksons, I'll have to order from my tech just using measuring, again. Why do they hype up the 3D scanning if it's rarely available?
I'd also like to know if they make customs for a skater who's using orthotics, whether they need the orthotics in their possession during the process or if they only need to know about them to create enough room in the boots.
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I’d like to know if Riedell will be at Adult Nationals this year. I’m curious about the Elara and want to know how customizable their new line is. I want to get fit by one if their techs instead of my local rep. I have to purchase semi-customs because of feet issues and would like to actually see if what I’m wearing is correct. No local tech I’ve ever talked to knows how to measure for heel width.
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Riedell: I don't know if you want to get into this, but Riedell boot heels have a multitude of nails inserted during construction. A couple of them make drilling holes for mounting blades a PITA.
The nails that I see consistently get in the way are the two located just above the bottom (rear-most) pair of nails. In this picture, I've drilled two temporary mounting screw holes in my new 2010 Fusions, and you can see that the left bottom hole overlapped a nail head. It made drilling holes squarely in the heel MUCH more difficult. (Note: there looks to be a lot of "holes" on the heel, but the majority of those are shallow pricks left behind by the manufacturing process.)
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/blade_mounting_drilling-9-smiley-800px.gif)
If they can do away with those two nails, I'd be eternally grateful. I'm sure that lots of pro shops would agree.
John Wilson: Has the rocker profile changed on Coronation Aces over the past 10 years? My last pair had a pronounced curve located around the first stanchion back from the picks, and I didn't have that on previous pairs of Aces.
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I'm making a list. Have these questions been sent to the vendor already? The "future plans for high-end blades" might not be answered easily by a vendor rep at a competition.
Side note: if you need to have a rep look at a pair of skates, the vendors set up big booths at trade shows for the PSA and ISI conferences as well as the ice skating rink associations like NEISMA and NARCE. Of course, they're at Regional/Sectional/National and the major ISI competitions with a booth.
I've been pleasantly surprised to attend PSA seminars and workshops to find that vendors are present to answer questions and sell smaller items like guards, footbeds, etc.
Sometimes, you can email the company to ask what their travel plans are if you really need to meet someone.
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Here's one more for your list. I bought Riedell 2010 Fusion books in a men's black. The exposed fabric over the padding is white. For a man, this is as subtle as a flashlight in a darkened room.
Can this be ordered in black fabric instead of white?
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/skates_2019_new-22-crop_text_800px.jpg)
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I'm making a list. Have these questions been sent to the vendor already? The "future plans for high-end blades" might not be answered easily by a vendor rep at a competition.
No, I've not submitted my questions to the vendors. In the past, Paramount has not been responsive to my emails. Even if the rep can't answer, I'm hoping at least he'd provide feedback to their marketing guys that there's customer interest.
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Riedell: I don't know if you want to get into this, but Riedell boot heels have a multitude of nails inserted during construction. A couple of them make drilling holes for mounting blades a PITA.
I wonder why the don't use screws. I would think they would hold the heel together better. Plus, if they added more than they need, it would be easy to remove a couple screws if they got in the way.
It's not like these are cheap throwaway shoes from a discount shoe store. A few extra pennies of extra manufacturing cost might be worth it.
I assume you are certain the nails were added by the manufacturer, right, not the fitter?
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Take a look at a video of Riedell boot manufacturing here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcuYZUQO21U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcuYZUQO21U). They drive all their heel nails at once in a machine. The nail insertion takes just a second, and is used together with a adhesive.
You can see all the nails in the heel toward the end of the video.
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Here's one more for your list. I bought Riedell 2010 Fusion books in a men's black. The exposed fabric over the padding is white. For a man, this is as subtle as a flashlight in a darkened room.
Can this be ordered in black fabric instead of white?
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boots_blades_2019/skates_2019_new-22-crop_text_800px.jpg)
I asked about this yesterday and the answer was yes, you can custom-order that with a black collar, but it puts it into a custom price range as well.
The rep suggested using shoe polish or permanent marker to recolor that area. If it's fabric, you might be better off using a fabric marker, which you can buy at a craft/fabric store.
If it's the pleather-like stuff, he described using a fine-grit sandpaper/sanding block to scuff it up before coloring. Be very careful to avoid sanding the stitching.
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No, I've not submitted my questions to the vendors. In the past, Paramount has not been responsive to my emails. Even if the rep can't answer, I'm hoping at least he'd provide feedback to their marketing guys that there's customer interest.
Paramount Skates didn't have a booth, so I sent you a message with contact info for the company.
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No one asked about this, but one of my students bought new Edea boots yesterday. The brand-new boot has a chemical/adhesive smell to them, so I suggested a pair of Stinkeez. Due to the over-under lacing required, a skate hook is essential. (They should include it with the skates, frankly.)
There's an oval plastic strap that comes with the boots -- one of the skaters from our rink taught us that it's to be hooked across the middle hooks to help the boot keeps its shape in storage. She also warned us about not leaving the skates in very hot/cold temperatures, like car trunks. Like most boots, they'll start to change shape/lose their fit.
They're nice boots, very lightweight, and the Skates US vendor mounted and sharpened her current blades while we waited. She tried them out on the demo rink and the mounting was good. The boots have to be tied tightly for support at the sides because there is less support at the front. I asked about that gap at the tongue and the rep told me it was normal, to allow ankle flexion.
This is only my second skater to try Edeas, she's coming from Jacksons, so I'm learning as well. (The first skater who tried them was mis-sized and didn't use the boots for very long.)
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What else did I learn yesterday? Hmmm....Jackson / Ultima Notes
Jackson will allow you to order three different types of heels/soles on their higher-end boots, but not on the lower-end that can be ordered with blades, like the Freestyle. Rats - I don't like their Fusion sole - the heel pitch makes skaters with weaker core strength lean forward while skating backwards, which is really bad for Pre-Juv Moves and above - those backward three turns are hard if you can't sit back on the heel.
The new Ultima Legacy 7' rocker blade has the same curve/angle as the traditional CorAce/MK Pro, meaning the heel rocker is a throwback. The rep explained that a lot of the other blade clones have a different curve at the heel rocker area. YMMV It is a very-pretty blade, lightweight due to the cut outs. He remarked that the discontinued Ultima Lite blade (also very pretty and light) had a problem where kids were getting their fingers stuck in the cutouts. They made them smaller on these blades to prevent that from happening, lol.
Another cool Ultima thing: the Apex series has a triangular-cut toe rake! It's very different-looking and the Apex Freestyle blade is supposed to be a careful clone of the MK Phantom, with an 8' rocker.
When I get a chance, I'll post some photos.
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What else did I learn yesterday? Hmmmm... JW/MK Notes
The rep wasn't at the table when I was there during practice ice. (It was dinner time, so they probably took a break.) I just looked and touched everything.
They have two new versions of the JW Coronation Ace and MK Professional blades. They are very slimmed-down blades due the huge cut outs between the stanchions and at the heel. Looks like the stanchion heights are the same as the traditional blades. They're all metal, no carbon fiber.
I also noticed that Gold Seal Revolutions have slightly higher stanchions than traditional Gold Seals. That surprised me - I had thought it was the other way around, but I compared them closely and took a few photos.
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There's a new custom-only boot vendor that has a full-carbon fiber sole/heel. Unfortunately, they decided to do online-only info, probably to get the IP tracking info, so I took a photo of their sign showing the URL. Due to lighting and poor photography skills, the photo wasn't readable, so I'll try to catch up with them another time to find out their name/url. (Really: just put out business cards with your website. Not great marketing, imo. I was surprised that he didn't offer to put me on a mailing list or give me a string bag with their URL.)
Boots were incredibly stiff, even the lowest end option, so my skaters are probably not their target audience.
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Very, very interesting news. Thanks for taking the time to chase down all the vendors for the questions!
Plus GOE+
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I’m not done yet! More to come - I bought the weekend ticket package, so I’ll be there for next few days.
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Paramount Skates didn't have a booth, so I sent you a message with contact info for the company.
Thanks for checking. By the way, I didn't receive any message from you.
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There's a new custom-only boot vendor that has a full-carbon fiber sole/heel. Unfortunately, they decided to do online-only info, probably to get the IP tracking info, so I took a photo of their sign showing the URL. Due to lighting and poor photography skills, the photo wasn't readable, so I'll try to catch up with them another time to find out their name/url. (Really: just put out business cards with your website. Not great marketing, imo. I was surprised that he didn't offer to put me on a mailing list or give me a string bag with their URL.)
Boots were incredibly stiff, even the lowest end option, so my skaters are probably not their target audience.
Would that be AURA?
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What else did I learn yesterday? Hmmm....Jackson / Ultima Notes
Jackson will allow you to order three different types of heels/soles on their higher-end boots, but not on the lower-end that can be ordered with blades, like the Freestyle. Rats - I don't like their Fusion sole - the heel pitch makes skaters with weaker core strength lean forward while skating backwards, which is really bad for Pre-Juv Moves and above - those backward three turns are hard if you can't sit back on the heel.
The new Ultima Legacy 7' rocker blade has the same curve/angle as the traditional CorAce/MK Pro, meaning the heel rocker is a throwback. The rep explained that a lot of the other blade clones have a different curve at the heel rocker area. YMMV It is a very-pretty blade, lightweight due to the cut outs. He remarked that the discontinued Ultima Lite blade (also very pretty and light) had a problem where kids were getting their fingers stuck in the cutouts. They made them smaller on these blades to prevent that from happening, lol.
Another cool Ultima thing: the Apex series has a triangular-cut toe rake! It's very different-looking and the Apex Freestyle blade is supposed to be a careful clone of the MK Phantom, with an 8' rocker.
When I get a chance, I'll post some photos.
Did you ask Jackson whether they plan to make their 3D scanner available to skate techs?
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Would that be AURA?
Yes, those are the mystery boots. https://www.auraskates.com/about-aura/
The pre-creased ankle areas are interesting - they call it their "Engineered Flex Channel."
They were very light with the full carbon-fiber heel/sole. He did mention the 3D scanning system for measurements and design.
Thanks!
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Did you ask Jackson whether they plan to make their 3D scanner available to skate techs?
Edit: answer is that it is under discussion now. I watched it in use. Very interesting. They have a clear plate on a foot rest where the skater places their foot. The hand-held scanner (like a checkout gun) shines light and the image is captured by a computer program. Very cool.
I also voiced my whine about the heel materials/design and then got side-tracked by shiny things (aka: blades.)
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Riedell: I don't know if you want to get into this, but Riedell boot heels have a multitude of nails inserted during construction. A couple of them make drilling holes for mounting blades a PITA.
The nails that I see consistently get in the way are the two located just above the bottom (rear-most) pair of nails. In this picture, I've drilled two temporary mounting screw holes in my new 2010 Fusions, and you can see that the left bottom hole overlapped a nail head. It made drilling holes squarely in the heel MUCH more difficult. (Note: there looks to be a lot of "holes" on the heel, but the majority of those are shallow pricks left behind by the manufacturing process.)
(Snipped)
If they can do away with those two nails, I'd be eternally grateful.
The rep says the nail pattern is fixed by the machining you mentioned downthread, so it won’t change anytime soon. Because you have men’s skates, there are more nails.
He recommends using Onky one heel slot, obviously the one not blocked by a nail, or drilling out the nail head, as you did.
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I’d like to know if Riedell will be at Adult Nationals this year. I’m curious about the Elara and want to know how customizable their new line is. I want to get fit by one if their techs instead of my local rep. I have to purchase semi-customs because of feet issues and would like to actually see if what I’m wearing is correct. No local tech I’ve ever talked to knows how to measure for heel width.
I have to ask if they’re going to AN - I forgot to ask.
Ellara is comparable to the Riedell Aria or the Edda ice fly. Very stiff.
Vega is comparable to a Bronze Star or Edea Chorus - fairly stiff.
Both were created to provide the look of an Edea skate, but without the plastic heel/sole Both allow the foot to move within the boot, like an Edea.
What’s interesting is that the last being used for these boots is wider at the forefoot than their current Riedell standard counterparts. They are, however, less tall than std Riedell boots
The entire Riedell line is going to be re-lasted for 2021 to use the new last: wider, less tall in the forefoot.
The
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Edit: answer is that it is under discussion now. I watched it in use. Very interesting. They have a clear plate on a foot rest where the skater places their foot. The hand-held scanner (like a checkout gun) shines light and the image is captured by a computer program. Very cool.
I've seen a picture of it...I wish I had remembered to ask the Jackson rep when I was speaking to him, why they do it that way....the skater's weight is not fully distributed on the foot the way it is when they are standing. I'm surprised it works, unless they automatically add room in the measurements to account for feet spreading.
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I've seen a picture of it...I wish I had remembered to ask the Jackson rep when I was speaking to him, why they do it that way....the skater's weight is not fully distributed on the foot the way it is when they are standing. I'm surprised it works, unless they automatically add room in the measurements to account for feet spreading.
I saw the description on the Jackson website. It is odd. When my fitter did the tracings for my Jacksons, he did two sets of tracings: one set with me sitting, and one set with me standing. That makes sense. You'd think they would do two sets of scans as well.
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The rep says the nail pattern is fixed by the machining you mentioned downthread, so it won’t change anytime soon. Because you have men’s skates, there are more nails.
He recommends using only one heel slot, obviously the one not blocked by a nail, or drilling out the nail head, as you did.
I was afraid that would be the answer. It just boggles my mind why so many nails are used.
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I was afraid that would be the answer. It just boggles my mind why so many nails are used.
"Don't use the slots or holes where there are nails, or drill out the nail heads if they are blocking you," is not a satisfactory answer. Particularly, drilling out just the nail head won't do, if the nail body is smack dab where you want the screw (Murphy's Law will ensure that it will be). I wonder if all those nails are needed only while the adhesive hardens. Not sure what would happen if you yanked the entire nail out.
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If I could have removed the offending nail, I would have. The heads are set well below the surface so there's no way to grab one for prying out.
I encountered problems on my old boots also during the blade testing. One of the permanent mounting holes on a blade interfered with a nail in another location. Because they've done it that way for 73 years does not make it a good engineering solution.
Sorry, I got a little grumpy there. >:(
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Edit: answer is that it is under discussion now. I watched it in use. Very interesting. They have a clear plate on a foot rest where the skater places their foot. The hand-held scanner (like a checkout gun) shines light and the image is captured by a computer program. Very cool.
Mark Ladwig fitted me for my first pair of semi-custom Jackson Premieres. I got him to scan my feet. It was kinda cool and confirmed that I was wearing the right size, though I could go a half size smaller on the right if I really wanted to.
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Thanks for all the info, Isk8NYC. Not happy to hear about Riedell changing their last. Stock Riedells fit me very well right now, on second pair. I expect another 4 years out of the current pair so I don't think buying a new pair in 2020 to hang onto for 4 years would be smart.
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If I could have removed the offending nail, I would have. The heads are set well below the surface so there's no way to grab one for prying out.
I encountered problems on my old boots also during the blade testing. One of the permanent mounting holes on a blade interfered with a nail in another location. Because they've done it that way for 73 years does not make it a good engineering solution.
Sorry, I got a little grumpy there. >:(
Nails have been used in shoes for centuries, at least. See the Honourable Cordwainers' Company library website (http://www.thehcc.org). Tradition! But most shoes don't need to have skate blades mounted to the bottom. So maybe the tradition should change.
Obviously you might be able to pry a nail out, if you damage the nearby surface, by punching a small hole next to it (perhaps with another nail, at an angle), and then levering it out. But it isn't right that you should have to go that far, or mess up the surface that way. Also, if they apply adhesive to the nails or in the holes, the nails might be hard to remove that way
If they used screws instead of nails, and used no adhesive or only an adhesive that breaks easily, they would be easy to remove. However, it would add extra seconds to production time and require new equipment.
If they applied all the nails at the extreme edge of the sole? Though maybe that wouldn't apply enough pressure in the center to let the glue set... Or maybe the direction of the leather grain isn't right in the uppers to hold the nails?
If you got grumpy, I bet other people have had the same problem. You have nothing to be sorry for - they do. You are probably right, and they should fix this, one way or another.