Bronze-Level Program Length

[Icicle]

How long should be a program for Adult Bronze Freestyle test? According to the official requirements, the length shouldn't exceed 1:40, but most programs I've seen are  longer. Is it okay to go over the limit and if it is, how many extra seconds are allowed?

[FigureSpins]

The USFSA Tests Book states that there is a deduction for running over the allotted time:

TR 29.04 If a skater fails to finish a free skate test program within the time duration allowed in section TR 32.00, a 0.1 deduction should be taken in both marks for up to every 10 seconds lacking or in excess of the prescribed range.

TR 32.10 Adult Bronze Free Skate Test
Duration: Ladies and Men — Not to exceed 1:50 to music of the skater’s choice.

You can only skate for 1:50 seconds before the timer goes off.  Going beyond that will result in penalties.

USFSA Rulebook and Tests Book: http://www.usfsa.org/New_Judging.asp?id=361

[FigureSpins]

For competitions, the rulebook states that there is a deduction and in addition, any elements done after the time limit are not judged.

4050 Duration of Skating – Singles
Timing starts from the moment the skater begins to move or skate. Timing stops when the skater comes to a complete stop at the end of the program.

4051 Permissible Time Allowance – Short Programs and All Adult Events
The duration of a short program and adult free skate must not exceed the maximum time allowed, but may be less, provided that all technical elements are included.
A. Any element started after the permissible time will be considered in the marking as omitted.
B. No extra marks are obtained by extending the program to the maximum time permitted if it is unnecessary to do so.
See rules 4913 and 1071 (C) for deductions for programs that exceed the time limit using the 6.0 system and the IJS respectively.

4913 Marking of Singles Short Programs – 6.0 System

F. An element is omitted when it is not tried; the jump combination is omitted when neither one of the two jumps is attempted.
1. Any element commenced after the permissible time allowance will be considered as omitted in the marking. In the event an element is commenced before but completed after the allowable time duration, appropriate deductions must be made for exceeding the maximum time permitted, but the element is to be judged as skated. The referee must advise the judges of any element begun after the time limit, and also of any program that exceeds the permissible time limit.
G. A whistle shall be blown by the referee when the allowable time has elapsed, and the judges shall cease judging the performance. If a competitor fails to finish the short program within the time limit, there should be a 0.1 deduction in the marks for technical elements and program components for up to every 10 seconds in excess.

1071 IJS Basic Principles of Calculation – All Skating Disciplines
C. Deductions are applied for each violation.
1. In singles and pairs, deductions are applied for each violation as follows:
 a. Time violations: -1.0 for every five seconds lacking or in excess
b. Music violations: -1.0 for vocal music (when not allowed)
c. Illegal element violation: -2.0 for every illegal element
d. Costume and prop violation: -l.0
e. Part of the costume/decoration falls on the ice: -1.0
f. Falls: -l.0 for every fall (in pair skating, -1.0 for a fall of one partner and -2.0 for a fall of both partners). See rule 1400 for the definition of a fall.
g. Deductions will be applied for interruptions to the program: -1.0 for 11-20 seconds interruption; -2.0 for 21-30 seconds interruption, etc.

[sarahspins]

It's also worth noting that the test requirement and competition requirements don't always line up - a lot of comps limit bronze programs to 1:40.

[FigureSpins]

It's also worth noting that the test requirement and competition requirements don't always line up - a lot of comps limit bronze programs to 1:40.

Absolutely - always check the competition announcements carefully because the wording is tricky.

The announcement will list the events and the time limit for each. 
At the top of that page, there is typically a duration statement such as:
 "(All free skate programs are +/-10 seconds. All short programs are maximum.)"

So, when it lists Pre-Preliminary as "1:30," that actually means "1:20 - 1:40."
Buuuuutttt...when you read the duration for Adult Bronze and it states "1:50 Max," it's an absolute value.

It's confusing, so it helps to read competition announcements, even if you're not entering anyone.

[jjane45]

...but most programs I've seen are longer.

Actually I am wondering if the programs you observed are indeed longer. Were they youtube videos or real life performances that you could time?

ETA: just realized both 1:40 and 1:50 are mentioned as limits, this is so confusing

[Icicle]

Those were YouTube videos. But as soon as 1:50 is allowed it's fine. Because I absolutely can't fit anything into a 1:40 program. But how strict are freestyle tests? For example, if you program is 1:52,  will they penalize you? And do they really time those programs during tests?

[Icicle]

By the way, jjane45, your program is 1:46; I just timed it. That's perfect! But it's so hard not to go over.

[FigureSpins]

Those were YouTube videos. But as soon as 1:50 is allowed it's fine. Because I absolutely can't fit anything into a 1:40 program. But how strict are freestyle tests? For example, if you program is 1:52,  will they penalize you? And do they really time those programs during tests?
 
And do they really time those programs during tests?

Remember that the timing starts with any skater movement (even an accidental fidget) and ends when the skater stops skating.  The CD track length or YouTube video length isn't the official time.   I quoted the rulebook - you can run over by as much as nine additional seconds without incurring the penalty, but why would you want to do that?

Yes, all programs are timed at test sessions and competitions here, with penalties if the skater runs over.  At first movement, the stopwatch and a countdown timer are activated.  When the countdown timer goes off, the referee instructs the judges to stop judging.  When the skater comes to a halt, the runover time is assessed to determine the penalty.  (In the ISI, they stopped your music when the timer went off.  If you kept skating, there was a mandatory time grade - they weren't into penalties.)

I don't understand why people feel they need to skirt the rules.  Taking more than the allotted time to skate gives the skater an advantage and holds up the test session or competition.  That just leads to more rules and/or penalties to try and reign in the greed for unfair advantages.

You really think 10 seconds makes that big a difference?  I guess it's 10% more time, but I would think that most of your elements would be complete - 10 seconds is one jump combination/sequence or one spin.  Definitely not "everything" required for a well-balanced program.  What would you be doing for the allowed 1:50?  If you're really struggling to fit everything into a program, try using power skating techniques to get a faster start so that the elements are evenly spaced.

[jjane45]

My coach used to say the USFS test programs are too busy, with all the requirements on jumps and spins there is barely time left for interesting stuff. OTOH, it's beneficial to practice going into spins or jumps with minimal setup time without losing their consistency. Sadly for spins I still prefer 3-4 crossovers to get comfortable, sigh.

[SynchKat]

Back in the day here the referee would blow a whistle and all judges would immediately look down.  not sure if it is still the same
It is tough fitting everything into such a short amount of time bi a good coach should be able to come up with some creative quick transitions.

[jjane45]

Back in the day here the referee would blow a whistle and all judges would immediately look down.  not sure if it is still the same

Sounds sckary! I assume for lower levels judged under IJS the time deduction of 1 point will be really significant, and the solution would be actually NOT to max out the music length, just in case something happens?

[FigureSpins]

Sounds sckary! I assume for lower levels judged under IJS the time deduction of 1 point will be really significant, and the solution would be actually NOT to max out the music length, just in case something happens?

Test programs are not judged under IJS.  Neither are low-level competition programs in the US.   (I don't remember if synchcat is from Canada or the US.)

[jjane45]

Test programs are not judged under IJS.  Neither are low-level competition programs in the US.   

I was thinking of the lowest levels judged under IJS, where the scoring potential is much less and 1 point becomes huge. 

Juvenile or intermediate are low levels for a skating fan following international skating, but they are high levels viewing from my own skating. SIGH 

[SynchKat]

Canada and this is what it was like when I was a kid so no IJS and I don't think beginners are judged under IJS.  But then again I think every level at our last adult nationals was IJS.  So really what do I know.

But when you think of it it is the most fair way to do it by making the judges look down after the time limit is reached. 

[Icicle]

Of course, I'm not trying to skirt the rules. I'm just having problems with music cutting. A lady has done it for me, and I told her I needed a 1:40 piece. So she stopped the music right in the middle of a phrase, and it sounds absolutely ridiculous, unnatural. And it only lasts 1:37. So now that I know that 1:50 are allowed, I'm trying to cut the piece myself. So now I have 1:51, but that's what the computer says. I don't think it's more than 1:50.

[FigureSpins]

Those were YouTube videos. But as soon as 1:50 is allowed it's fine. Because I absolutely can't fit anything into a 1:40 program. But how strict are freestyle tests? For example, if you program is 1:52,  will they penalize you? And do they really time those programs during tests?

Of course, I'm not trying to skirt the rules. I'm just having problems with music cutting. A lady has done it for me, and I told her I needed a 1:40 piece. So she stopped the music right in the middle of a phrase, and it sounds absolutely ridiculous, unnatural. And it only lasts 1:37. So now that I know that 1:50 are allowed, I'm trying to cut the piece myself. So now I have 1:51, but that's what the computer says. I don't think it's more than 1:50.

Sorry, but your prior posts all indicate that you want more time for skating, not because you're having trouble cutting the music.  It is difficult to snip and paste - songs with vocals are the worst.  Did you try adjusting the tempo?  That's usually the easiest way to lose/gain a few seconds.

Again, if you don't move for the first few seconds of the program, the timing doesn't start.  It's wierd to see people frozen like a statue for ten seconds, but a short pause is painless.

[jjane45]

Of course, I'm not trying to skirt the rules. I'm just having problems with music cutting. A lady has done it for me, and I told her I needed a 1:40 piece. So she stopped the music right in the middle of a phrase, and it sounds absolutely ridiculous, unnatural. And it only lasts 1:37. So now that I know that 1:50 are allowed, I'm trying to cut the piece myself. So now I have 1:51, but that's what the computer says. I don't think it's more than 1:50.

Slightly changing the tempo should work in this case. Good luck!

[Clarice]

Of course, I'm not trying to skirt the rules. I'm just having problems with music cutting. A lady has done it for me, and I told her I needed a 1:40 piece. So she stopped the music right in the middle of a phrase, and it sounds absolutely ridiculous, unnatural. And it only lasts 1:37. So now that I know that 1:50 are allowed, I'm trying to cut the piece myself. So now I have 1:51, but that's what the computer says. I don't think it's more than 1:50.

I hear you - non-musical cuts are a pet peeve of mine (because I'm a professional musician).  Changing the time is very easy.  I use Audacity to cut music, and all you have to do is highlight the track, click "Effects",  then choose "Change Tempo".  It will allow you to enter the number of seconds you want the finished track to be, and then will automatically adjust to that length.  The pitch will not change.  If you try to change by too much, the character of the music will change and you might not like that, but for just a couple of seconds you won't even notice.  This is a free program - lots of folks use it, and I highly recommend it.

[Skittl1321]

So now I have 1:51, but that's what the computer says. I don't think it's more than 1:50.

I THINK timing is supposed to start when you first MOVE, not when the music starts, so in theory, if you hold 2 seconds before starting, you will be under the time.  However, I'm a) not sure that rule is still in place (I can't find it in the rulebook, however, I know our synchro team did a program where we held 5 seconds so we would be in the time limits, we were strongly cautioned by our coach to not move AT all), b)not sure it is applied evenly at low level competitions, where uniformed volunteers are often the ones doing the timing.

I personally would not worry too much about 1 second- because timing relies on someone pressing a button at the right moment at local competitions, they usually give just a bit of leway before applying a deduction. 

[Icicle]

I hear you - non-musical cuts are a pet peeve of mine (because I'm a professional musician).  Changing the time is very easy.  I use Audacity to cut music, and all you have to do is highlight the track, click "Effects",  then choose "Change Tempo".  It will allow you to enter the number of seconds you want the finished track to be, and then will automatically adjust to that length.  The pitch will not change.  If you try to change by too much, the character of the music will change and you might not like that, but for just a couple of seconds you won't even notice.  This is a free program - lots of folks use it, and I highly recommend it.

Clarice, that's terrific! I did use Audacity but not the way you say. I just chose the "delete" function and somehow tried to blend the remaining pieces together. What I got isn't bad, but I'll definitely try to do it your way. Thank you very much!

[Icicle]

I THINK timing is supposed to start when you first MOVE, not when the music starts, so in theory, if you hold 2 seconds before starting, you will be under the time.  However, I'm a) not sure that rule is still in place (I can't find it in the rulebook, however, I know our synchro team did a program where we held 5 seconds so we would be in the time limits, we were strongly cautioned by our coach to not move AT all), b)not sure it is applied evenly at low level competitions, where uniformed volunteers are often the ones doing the timing.

I personally would not worry too much about 1 second- because timing relies on someone pressing a button at the right moment at local competitions, they usually give just a bit of leway before applying a deduction.

Thank you, Skittl, that's comforting. Actually, it's the computer that gives me an extra second, but the music ends a little before that. So technically it is 1:50. But this current version is 13 seconds longer than the first, so there is room for a few more things. But the most important thing is that the music doesn't end abruptly. I absolutely hated that first cut. It sounded like a CD player malfunction. 

[LilJen]

I, too, have a pet peeve of ending pieces in mid-phrase, or just a lame fadeout, or just in a BAD spot. Half the reason I don't end up picking various pieces of music is that, musically, I can't fit them into the allotted time frame.

Remember, too, that the bronze FS test requirements and the "well-balanced" bronze FS competitive program requirements are TOTALLY different. It is definitely best to simply construct a test program just plugging in the required elements. When you compete, you'll have a little more freedom with placement of elements and such (although it's always a struggle to fit everything in!).

[jjane45]

Remember, too, that the bronze FS test requirements and the "well-balanced" bronze FS competitive program requirements are TOTALLY different. It is definitely best to simply construct a test program just plugging in the required elements.

There is an underlying expectation for SOME connecting moves between elements for bronze and above, no?

[Skittl1321]

The bronze test program actually requires footwork not as a sequence but throughout the program (though lots of people just do a sequence because they need it for competition).  The competition program requires a half-ice sequence.

However, most bronze programs transitions are just 'skate, skate, skate' maybe with some pretty arms and a mohawk or 3-turn to fancy it up a little bit.