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On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: riley876 on January 14, 2015, 06:09:28 PM

Title: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 14, 2015, 06:09:28 PM
In the last month I've seen 2 falls with head knocks from figure skaters at the ice rink.   One was minor and the other not so minor (but not involving a loss of conciousness)  Both involved going over backwards after catching the heel corners during general footwork (i.e. not during jumping or spinning).

It's a horrific thing to watch and hear - it literally sounds like a coconut on concrete,  it's left me a little unsettled.  Though I do wear a helmet, always have done, and always will.

It strikes me that I have never seen a head smack during my last 3 years at the inline rink.  It's true that not many people do anything fancy on inlines generally at my usual rink,  and it's also true that on wheels you can pull slightly wayward skates back underneath one self, and going over backwards happens a split second slower than on ice figure skates (i.e. no picks or heel corners to vault you into the floor).    But still 2 in a month vs none in a 3 year it makes me wonder.   Especially about the need to have sharp cornered heels on blades.

Anyway, just kinda needed to talk about it a bit.   

What's your experience seeing (or experiencing first hand) head smacks during your skating?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Bill_S on January 14, 2015, 06:34:14 PM
Yeah, that sound (head hitting ice) is scary.

I bonked my head once fairly hard. I was still learning the basics, and I used to be quite fearless. I decided to just try an axel, and hit my head pretty hard in the attempt. I've generally been lucky, and have avoided hitting my head  - mostly by tucking my chin strongly on the way down. If I land on my back, the force pulls very hard against my neck muscles, and I'm sore in the front neck muscles the next day. But I don't hit my head, which is the goal.

I've seen a couple of moderate head bangs during our freestyle sessions that required an ambulance. No one was unconscious though, but needed to be checked for concussion.

The worst I've seen have been during public sessions where beginners have something go wrong. They don't yet know how to fall to minimize damage. One woman was hit from behind  by a too-fast, out-of-control guy on hockey skates, and went down so hard she didn't gain consciousness while we waited for the ambulance. That was a bad one. I've seen other people who black out for a few minutes after a fall, and they get a ride also. One woman fell, hit her head, but said that she was OK.  She started skating again, but you could tell that something was going wrong. She began to look very wobbly, so the rink guards made her get off the ice and wait for an ambulance.

Unlike you though, I've seen people at a roller rink require an ambulance because of falls. Even I have fallen and hit my head at the roller rink. I split my eyebrow on a forward fall on my inlines during a 3-turn at speed. I absorbed most of the energy using my arms (not locked), but tapped my face hard enough to bleed profusely. They had to get out the mop to clean up after me, but it wasn't a medically serious injury.

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: rd350 on January 14, 2015, 07:01:43 PM
I've seen 2, though 1 was a kid on hockey skates running crazy circles when he lost it and went into the boards.  He did lose consciousness very briefly.

The other was a friend who was skating around pairs with another friend and they were across the rink and although I saw it, I wasn't close.  They were taking a corner and I think one of them may have been in a turn forward<> back and I think they just caught their blades.  I'd never seen them fall before but she went down on the back of her head, hard.  She was down quite a while but did not lose consciousness and was fine.

I ordered my RibCap soft helmet the next day and always wear it.  Glad to report it hasn't been tested!

@ChristyRN, here went down and blacked out a few months ago and had some amnesia but I think she is back on the ice again just recently - with head protection.

It's good you're wearing protection.  That's about all you can do if you want to skate and move skills forward.  Protect yourself at the level that makes you more comfortable.  I wear the RibCap, Se_Ku ProTech pants with padding at the hips and coccyx and Se_Ku knee pads.  I know wrist guards would be smart but I like having my hands free.  Although it might stop the crazy things my wrists want to do sometimes!  Hmm....
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on January 14, 2015, 07:29:54 PM
My daughter hit her head real hard, made the sound.  Probably a mild concussion and she was ok the next day.   A hockey player at our rink hit his head real hard and lost consciousness during a public skate.   He hasn't been back to the rink.

    Head protection is very useful.   I have this one and I like it. I don't wear it enough.   http://crasche.com   But, working on my next moves in the field, I will break it out.   
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 14, 2015, 07:35:15 PM
It's good you're wearing protection.  That's about all you can do if you want to skate and move skills forward.  Protect yourself at the level that makes you more comfortable.  I wear the RibCap, Se_Ku ProTech pants with padding at the hips and coccyx and Se_Ku knee pads.  I know wrist guards would be smart but I like having my hands free.  Although it might stop the crazy things my wrists want to do sometimes!  Hmm....

LOL, maybe it will.  They certainly restrict mobility a bit, but not enough to say not be able to do up laces whilst wearing them.  What I found immediately was that wrist guards stopped my dumb instinct to use my fingers to catch myself.    Unlike the rest of my padding kit, I think they don't look unflattering at all, I don't know why they aren't more popular.

I suspect my level of paranoia might top everyone else's here: I wear the full kit:

- Skateboarding type helmet, custom modified**
- 187 Roller derby style knee pads (with 40mm thick foam! - it's like falling on kittens!)
- 187 Roller derby style elbow pads
- 187 Wrist guards, with extra foam shoved between palm splint and hand
- 20mm hip pads sewn into my (slightly baggy) skating pants
- Triangle of 20mm foam strategically shoved down the back of pants

Pretty much the whole roller derby setup.  I regularly get asked if I play.  Good for a conversation starter if nothing else I suppose!  People also ask how I can do crossovers with those huge knee pads.   The answer I give is that I employ magic.  8)

Downside is that I guess no coach would touch me should I ever decide to get semi-serious.  But oh well, all risk mitigation has a price.

** See http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45084   - my conclusion was that you can't buy a helmet suitable for the level of impacts that you're likely to get whilst skating - so I made my own.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: ChristyRN on January 14, 2015, 07:49:47 PM

@ChristyRN, here went down and blacked out a few months ago and had some amnesia but I think she is back on the ice again just recently - with head protection.

Three months ago yesterday. I've been back on ice once, last week. I was going to go yesterday, but had too much other stuff to do instead. I'm planning on going Saturday to make that up.

I still don't know what happened. I do have the Crasche Middie band and it wasn't uncomfortable, just weird as I don't generally wear things on my head unless I'm at work (scrub hats).

It wasn't my first on-ice concussion, but the first one was about three months in. I was standing on the goalie crease, then I was on the ice surrounded by coaches. I should have gone to the ER then, but actually got back on for the group lesson. If I hadn't, I probably never would have skated again.

Most of what I see is toe-pick chin hits. Blood everywhere.  Not nearly as bad, but you can get a concussion that way too.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: lutefisk on January 14, 2015, 08:29:36 PM
I've had one.  I fell backwards and smacked my head hard enough that my eye glasses flew to the other side of the rink.  My head was pounding but I jumped up and skated over and grabbed them up before some kid ran over them.  Head hurt for a couple days but fortunately just a "light" smack.  I no longer wear eye wear when skating.  Since then I've witnesses two other skaters going down and hitting the backsides of their heads.  One was a young coach the other was an ice tourist.  The young coach had to stay off the ice for a couple weeks and not watch tv or read during her recovery period.  She probably returned to the ice too soon but skates today without any obvious effects.  The ice tourist lady went down hard and had to be removed from the ice by EMS personnel.  I've never seen her again and don't know her out come.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Live2Sk8 on January 14, 2015, 08:43:34 PM
I've hit my head 3 times, and seen adult skaters hit their heads multiple times.  Also saw a father fall backwards on public - he was unconscious briefly.  He resisted ambulance but I think he was convinced to go by family.  Never saw the family again, unfortunately, and they had looked like they were having such a fun time together.  2 of the adult skaters who hit their heads were very confident on returning to the ice after many years off.  They went into awesome sit spins but slipped backwards and whacked their heads.  (This has contributed greatly to my difficulties with the sit spin, even though people tell me that won't happen.  Sorry, I have personally witnessed it twice.)  A third was learning sit spin in LTS and fell backwards.  Her tailbone was sore more than her head so I don't think she whacked her head too hard. 

My head hits were all flukes.  One, I tried shoot-the-duck for the first time and LTS coach did not say to reach your arms forward so I didn't, and slipped backwards off my blade.  The next one, I was thinking about what to practice next and somehow hit a condensation bump while basically standing in place and fell backwards like a log.  That made a horrible noise on the ice.  The third time, I was in a spin and went off the back of my blade and again fell backwards like a log.  Actually maybe I didn't hit my head on that one - think I knew enough to tuck my chin by this point.  I did not have medical attention for any of these.  I felt really sick after the shoot-the-duck fall but it might have been fear.

I wear an Ice Halo when I do moves in the field or when learning something new.  Another adult skater hit his head while wearing his Ice Halo and he is positive it helped reduce the impact. 

I did have a bad fall while rollerskating on the sidewalk as a child.  I must have done the roller skate equivalent of a toepick because I fell forward and scraped a lot of skin off my nose from momentum.  No broken bones, but it really hurt.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: amy1984 on January 15, 2015, 02:02:26 AM
I saw a fall one time between two skaters that caused one of them to ram her head into the boards.  She sat there, startled for a couple seconds, then started to cry (I would too!).  Was able to get up and off the ice and seemed okay, just a little scared I think.

I think it's amazing that in almost 20 years of skating, I can count the number of times I've seen someone hit their head on one hand.  I think I've hit my head all of one time.  We figure skaters are like cats I guess.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Loops on January 15, 2015, 04:31:57 AM
We figure skaters are like cats I guess.

I think we have to be, or we'd be done after the first fall.

I'm pretty sure I gave myself a concussion (when I was around 6?  Just started with groups and was showing off to my friends....slammed into the boards, came to in the warming room.  Got what I deserved).  And saw a fellow skater fall backwards out of a layback.  That was bad, but she was fine.  Like Amy1984's experience, she was stunned for a little bit, then started to cry.  There was no medical attention.  I think she left the ice, perhaps for the rest of that session, but was back pretty soon afterwards.

Probably the worst injuries that happened were one girl who broke her leg, I think on an axel attempt (I wasn't around when that happened), and of my fellow skaters who fell during patch.  She was working on her 8th, so deffo not a beginner;  went down straight onto her bum and broke her tailbone.  So it can really happen at any time and without warning. 

So counting the tail bone, that's 3 pretty big falls in probably around 9 years.  This all happened when I was a kid/teen.  Haven't seen anything yet since I've been back on the ice as an adult.  Most falls really aren't so bad.  Somewhere on this forum is a thread where we share our own injuries.....if you're worried about it, you can read what many of us have done and lived to tell the tale, AND laugh afterward.   Big injuries are thankfully pretty rare, and I think head injuries are a small percentage of those.

At my rink, I'm pretty much the only adult who falls, but I'm a little more fearless than my fellow skaters.  I don't wear head protection- my naturally well padded bum takes most of the impact when I go down, although I did bellyflop out of a camel attempt earlier this year (got right back up, and did the camel correctly, like those cats).    I keep thinking about getting a Crasche midi or IceHalo.....you never know when you're going to go down like that.  But I already take skating so much more seriously than my peers, so do "weird" things....like actually skating during warm up and stretching afterwards.   And I'd be the only one wearing anything on my head, even if they didn't know it was protection.  [sigh] Conformity.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: davincisop on January 15, 2015, 09:51:12 AM
I've thankfully never seen one, but I have been victim of one. I was spinning and just went off my balance. Didn't even know I was going down until I hit. Ended up bashing my knee and hitting my chin, nose and forehead (twice, my face bounced....). I went to the clinic and they said if I had a headache or anything to go to the ER. I didn't, probably should have. I feel like my short term memory hasn't been as great since I hit my face....


One woman at my rink stepped out of the music box without looking and collided with a skater going backwards, and she got knocked down and was unconscious for a moment.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: TreSk8sAZ on January 15, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
I must be pretty odd, because I really haven't seen much. I've hit my head falling on footwork once, but I had a ponytail in and hit that so no damage at all. The only one I've really seen was an adult beginner in hockey skates. He was skating to the boards and fell. As he fell, he reached out for the boards and missed so hit his head on the boards. If he would have just fallen, he probably would have been fine. Other than that, really nothing. Maybe it makes a difference that I'm on freestyles with people who generally are working on an axel or higher. A few lower than that, and many upper level skaters, but I don't do publics so maybe that's why I haven't seen any.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: rd350 on January 15, 2015, 02:56:23 PM
Had a very short skate today (to get to that next level of break-in time on new boots, to go up to the next hook tying) and not doing much during the break in.  No spins or jumps.  Still, as I was about to step onto the ice I realized I forgot my RibCap and I went back and got it out of the locker.  No falls but I somehow tangled both blades on some footwork and remember being happy I had the hat.  Luckily no fall!  Whew.  This thread pushed me to use it though, even on ice for 40 minutes doing nothing too difficult.  But we know many falls happen when you're just standing still!
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Christy on January 15, 2015, 09:32:03 PM
When I was around 8 I went skating with my Dad and he fell and got a nasty gash on his forehead. He didn't black out or anything but was a little shaken, however he get back on the ice then drove home. Sadly my mother wouldn't let him skate after that.
Recently some local rinks have started to make helmets mandatory at public sessions after an older man fell and had to be taken to ER. I have seen two other people fall and hit their heads and the sound was horrible. Fortunately neither blacked out and one has skated since.
It definitely makes you think and I do need to find a solution. I got the crasche midi but it's so slippery it's too distracting, so maybe the ribcap.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: PinkLaces on January 15, 2015, 10:32:41 PM
There were enough concussions at my old rink that they now do baseline concussion testing every year. I, myself, tripped, fell, and hit the back of my head (after avoiding a collision with another skater). Had it checked out by the doc. No concussion but had to take 2 weeks off ice.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on January 18, 2015, 04:43:11 PM
A skater at my rink was jumping a cone, and wound up face down on the ice. I skated over and asked him if he was alright. He was completely non-responsive for at least a minute - probably unconscious from a concussion. He got himself up after a few minutes, but needed two people's help to get himself to the edge of the rink, and seemed dazed an confused at first. 

Fortunately he wasn't driving himself home.

It was quite scary.

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: karne on January 19, 2015, 02:49:49 AM
Faceplant onto the ice. I guessed I probably had a concussion because when I get them I get stupidly fixated on one tiny thing - in this case it was my glasses. Where are they? Someone might skate over them. They're broken. I don't have my spare. I have to tape them up so the screw doesn't fall out. Please don't take my glasses off, I need them.

I was more worried about the fact I couldn't move my arm though. That was the time I learned you can actually sprain your shoulder. I had no idea this was possible.

Funnily enough, riding a bike without a helmet is against the law here, and I'd have never rollerbladed without one, but it's never occurred to me to wear a helmet on the ice.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: cbskater on January 20, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
I've seen a lot of beginner kids fall, bump their heads, cry & then they are fine. I haven't witnessed a bad head injury. I hit my head once when I stepped on the ice with my hard guards on. I actually hit my head on the threshold where you step on the ice, not the ice itself. Didn't pass out, held ice on my head for a while then skated. Had a bump on my head for a couple of weeks that was sore to touch, but otherwise nothing hurt but my pride. :blush: I was cautious for a couple of weeks while skating also. I didn't want to hit it again. I also never step on the ice anymore without looking down at my skates.

@rd350- I didn't wear wrist guards either until I watched my friend fall & break her wrist doing a 3 turn. I now wear the Red wrist guards. I don't even notice that I'm wearing them. They are not bulky & don't restrict me in any way, other than I cant do the floppy hand thing that my coach would yell at me for anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 20, 2015, 03:30:20 PM
Okay, I'm going to be "that person." (sorry in advance)

You can still sustain a severe concussion without loss of consciousness. I would argue that most people who sustain a concussion do not know they have one. My first concussion was fairly mild. I got back up as soon as they'd let me (they were concerned about an injured spine... there was no EMT there, so my coach tried her best), and it wasn't until five minutes later that I became nauseated. Onlookers were fond of saying it was "the adrenaline," when in reality I'd hit my head pretty hard. It took years to put two and two together.

My fifth concussion involved 20 minutes of memory loss, but I was able to sit up (but not stand) immediately. I responded with a thumbs up when I was asked if I was okay. I wasn't, but nobody knew it because I responded. No one walked up to check on me, just let me sit; after an undeterminable amount of time, I was able to get up and stumble to a nearby seat. A year later, I actually asked if I had really given the thumbs up, because I remember thinking I wanted to do it, but wasn't sure if I had succeeded. I should have been carted off to the ER immediately, because it was only ~3 months after brain surgery.

Symptoms can be as mild as a headache ("well, I hit my head, so...") or a general fuzzy feeling (not necessarily dizziness). I think it has been said, but head protection will not stop a concussion... only, potentially, a skull fracture. All but one of my concussions occurred while wearing a helmet.

I'm not a doctor, but if you hit your head, please give yourself a 15 minute break to wait for symptoms before proceeding back onto the ice. Some symptoms don't appear (or are not noticed) for 24 hours. If you feel not quite right, go home and do something mindless (bonus points if you can get someone else to drive you or take public transport). Try to avoid mentally taxing activities, like reading or studying. You need to let your brain rest. If you have blurred vision, or nausea, go to the ER. They can't DO anything for a concussion except monitor you and do a CT scan, but it's best to go. If you see someone hit their head and begin to vomit, call an ambulance immediately - this is a sign of a brain bleed. Same if they are unable to stand. Experts say to never move an unconscious person... always suspect the spine has been injured. It's very, very important to not hit the head again once it has been concussed. This can easily lead to death. Every time you sustain a concussion, you are x% more likely to sustain another. The percentage only goes up as you accumulate more head injuries.

I had to fight to go to the ER after one of my worst concussions. Nobody would take me to the hospital, but everyone offered to drive me home (or follow me). I had to call my parents an hour away to take me. It's the responsibility of those who witness the head injury to speak up for the injured and make sure they receive proper care or are okay to continue on. Typically, they are not okay to do that on their own. I'm guilty of pulling the "I'm totally okay" card (case in point: My thumbs up story). Many people don't know the signs of concussion, and can't recognize when someone has been injured; I really advocate for people educating themselves on the signs.

I'm sorry to be preachy (truly) but concussion awareness is one of my soapbox subjects. I've had 5, plus brain tumor, plus brain herniation. I take head injury very seriously, always.

To answer the original question, I haven't witnessed any head injuries on the ice. I've seen many related to horseback riding that would make your hair curl.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 20, 2015, 04:10:05 PM
I think it has been said, but head protection will not stop a concussion... only, potentially, a skull fracture. All but one of my concussions occurred while wearing a helmet.

I'm very interested to know about the helmet(s) you were wearing at the time of your concussions?  Particularly what standards it was approved to, and secondly if there was any sign of the foam being compressed at all, either during the hit or permanently.

From my testing, I've come to the conclusion that most helmets are really awful, and only one step away from being completely useless.  Either the foam is too hard to compress at all in real world impacts, or the foam is too soft to stop it "bottoming out". 

Usually they're designed to just sneak under a regulatory limit of 300G @ 5m/s or so, and totally ignore any lower speed impacts  (i.e. lower speed impacts are ALSO in the hundreds of Gs, just experienced for a shorter time).   On the other side of the spectrum,  un-regulated helmets, like soft-foam skate or kayaking helmets (and I'd guess others like ribcaps) are just too soft and thin to provide any decent amount of controlled deceleration.    I'd put most hockey helmets in this category too - their foam is too thin.  10mm is just not enough, no matter how high tech it is.   So I'm not surprised the average helmet is poor at stopping concussions.   

Then there's the theory than sudden rotational jerks are more to blame for concussions than linear decelerations are.   Haven't found any solid references proving this either way yet though.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 20, 2015, 04:39:29 PM
I was wearing a riding helmet; mine are always ASTM certified (as required by the rules set forth by USEF).

Here is one brand of helmet I wore:
http://onekhelmets.com/helmets-certification/

The other brand was an International Riding Helmet, which is held to the same standards. I'm very picky about helmet fit. No wobbling, no gaps, and no perching on the head. This is why I'm unable to wear the most popular name brands - they don't fit!

My helmets are replaced after every fall, every 4 years, and if I accidentally leave it in the hot car (which I've done... whoops!) The One K was one of my later, worse, concussions... it was about 2-3 weeks old. We can send them in for inspection, but I did not do this with this particular helmet. I actually still have it, but obviously don't use it.

The interior is designed to crush under impact - you rarely see the exterior damaged, but when you open them up, they can be pretty grisly. This is why, unlike football or hockey helmets, we have to replace them when we fall.

I was told that no helmet can stop a concussion, as your brain bouncing in your skull is what causes the concussion. Not the impact itself.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 20, 2015, 05:26:58 PM
I was told that no helmet can stop a concussion, as your brain bouncing in your skull is what causes the concussion. Not the impact itself.

Cheers for the info regarding your helmets.  All good data.

A concussion isn't a yes-or-no thing (though there may be a diagnostic cutoff level).  It's a matter of severity.  So any reduction in forces applied to the brain surely have to help to reduce the severity.    Maybe a "perfect" helmet that could eliminate it altogether isn't practical, but isn't any significant reduction in severity is good to have?   Though like you, I don't think current helmets achieve that very well.    But not because of a physics or biological constraint.

I believe the current crop of helmets standards are to blame.   All the ASTM and EN standards specify only a G limit (250G-400G) at a high fixed (usually 20-30MPH) impact speed.   They simply don't test for low speed impacts.   So they get engineered with INCREDIBLY hard foam to be able to pass only this rather severe test,  but that hard foam doesn't compress enough to reduce ANY impact, no matter how low speed,  to below the 50G-ish threshold for concussion damage.   

i.e. 250G is a "you die or not" level of impact protection, rather than a "concussion or not" one.   
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on January 20, 2015, 05:28:25 PM
Usually they're designed to just sneak under a regulatory limit of 300G @ 5m/s or so, and totally ignore any lower speed impacts  (i.e. lower speed impacts are ALSO in the hundreds of Gs, just experienced for a shorter time).   On the other side of the spectrum,  un-regulated helmets, like soft-foam skate or kayaking helmets (and I'd guess others like ribcaps) are just too soft and thin to provide any decent amount of controlled deceleration.

Even if all helmets were better at controlling deceleration, there is also the matter of protecting everything that matters. I've had two kayaking accidents in which I hit an eyebrow on a rock - because, last I checked, no existing kayak helmets that fit me cover my eyebrows. Most part, kayak impacts occur underwater, but one of those occurred above the water, and almost made me unconscious - in which case I would probably have drowned.

That said, imperfect helmets can often be a lot better than nothing.

But you can't expect protective gear to protect you from everything, and people often take advantage of protective gear too much - athletic training texts say that sport helmets invariably decrease the number of deaths, but increase the number of injuries.

In practice, figure skating is an appearance sport, and people like the feeling of freedom that comes from minimalist gear. Most figure skaters would not choose to wear helmets.  It is frequently hard to tell kayaking guys from gals, and I don't think most figure skating gals would want that.

I was told that no helmet can stop a concussion, as your brain bouncing in your skull is what causes the concussion. Not the impact itself.

A ridiculous statement. The impact causes the deceleration, which causes the bouncing. Who came up with that?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 20, 2015, 05:48:00 PM
In practice, figure skating is an appearance sport, and people like the feeling of freedom that comes from minimalist gear. Most figure skaters would not choose to wear helmets.  It is frequently hard to tell kayaking guys from gals, and I don't think most figure skating gals would want that

Totally agree, and I would be shocked if helmets ever became anything other than "nervous beginners" wear.

I may be a (very) little bit beyond "nervous beginner", but I've already made peace with the realisation that I'll never be anything but painful to watch on ice, so I figure what does it matter if I don't look the part?   To some extent it's an "idiot filter".   i.e. if people don't want to know me because I don't look "normal", then I consider it a bonus that they aren't going to interact with me.   I don't test and I don't compete, so I'll do what I please to protect myself.   It doesn't change how skating feels to me, and that's the #1 thing.   And if random strangers can't figure out my gender,  that's not my problem :)

I fully understand that most people here have other priorities.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 20, 2015, 05:52:09 PM

A ridiculous statement. The impact causes the deceleration, which causes the bouncing. Who came up with that?

Sorry, I guess that was poorly worded. Simply put: A helmet does not prevent your brain from moving inside of your skull.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on January 20, 2015, 06:38:56 PM

Sorry, I guess that was poorly worded. Simply put: A helmet does not prevent your brain from moving inside of your skull.

Hence the controversy about traumatic brain injury in football, where everyone wears a helmet! The difference there, of course, is that those helmet-covered heads experience impact much more often than even the clumsiest figure skater. :)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Isk8NYC on January 20, 2015, 06:39:04 PM
Sorry, I guess that was poorly worded. Simply put: A helmet does not prevent your brain from moving inside of your skull.
Completely accurate, but helmets do stop external scalp/skull injuries. 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 20, 2015, 08:32:41 PM
Completely accurate, but helmets do stop external scalp/skull injuries.

Yes, of course! That's a product of this statement I made:

"I think it has been said, but head protection will not stop a concussion... only, potentially, a skull fracture. All but one of my concussions occurred while wearing a helmet."

Which brought about the question of a helmet's effectiveness in preventing/lessening concussion. But it bears repeating.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: ChristyRN on January 20, 2015, 09:12:33 PM
Completely accurate, but helmets do stop external scalp/skull injuries.

Maybe I wouldn't have bashed my scalp open if I'd had a helmet on?   88)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on January 20, 2015, 09:31:42 PM
I believe the current crop of helmets standards are to blame.   All the ASTM and EN standards specify only a G limit (250G-400G) at a high fixed (usually 20-30MPH) impact speed.   They simply don't test for low speed impacts.   So they get engineered with INCREDIBLY hard foam to be able to pass only this rather severe test,  but that hard foam doesn't compress enough to reduce ANY impact, no matter how low speed,  to below the 50G-ish threshold for concussion damage.   

i.e. 250G is a "you die or not" level of impact protection, rather than a "concussion or not" one.

So do you think that the more compressible protection like the Ice Halo or RibCap might actually be better for the low speed impacts that might be more common for beginning skaters?  (I've wondered about the Crasche, which I also have- hard outer layer but a very thin foam lining that doesn't seem like it would do anything at all to affect deceleration.)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 20, 2015, 10:11:43 PM
So do you think that the more compressible protection like the Ice Halo or RibCap might actually be better for the low speed impacts that might be more common for beginning skaters?  (I've wondered about the Crasche, which I also have- hard outer layer but a very thin foam lining that doesn't seem like it would do anything at all to affect deceleration.)

They probably would be better.  But the ribcap's foam is only 11mm thick and it's not a desirable "crush and stay crushed" type.   

Here's a review from a great bike helmet site:  http://www.bhsi.org/ribcap.htm

11mm of compression doesn't protect past VERY low speed impacts,  but 11mm is still WAY more cushioning than the 0mm of compression you'll likely get in a standards approved 250G helmet in a standard trip over backwards, half save yourself, land on your posterior then knock head type scenario.    But once you get to higher speed impacts,  say a totally uncontrolled head-first impact, the mere 11mm of very soft looking foam will bottom out,  leaving it only barely better than a hard foam helmet (i.e. barely better than nothing).    But on this basis I'd probably use it over a standards approved skateboard or equestrian type helmet.   Hard to say for sure without knowing just how soft the foam is.   But I'd probably replace the foam inserts with the hardest grade of EVA foam I could get a hold of.   Or maybe polyurethane.   Actually I wouldn't bother with it all, even if I wanted the look, I'd just buy a suitable XL woolly hat and sew some pockets for foam inserts in myself.   It isn't rocket science.

The crasche looks too thin too.

The ice halo looks better, simply because the foam looks significantly thicker than the ribcap.   But again if the density is too low, then it'll be no better at handling serious knocks.

It's a sad fact of physics that protection here requires a decent thickness of foam.  Because people hate the "mushroom head" look, the manufacturers have to compromise their helmets/hats to sell them. 

I'm *really* glad I worked out something for myself to bypass this whole mess.     But even my custom helmet is still a compromise on both "killer hit" impacts and minor knocks to improve performance on more likely damaging medium hits.   The style isn't flattering though.  Though it is de rigueur for roller derby ;)

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: karne on January 21, 2015, 01:55:55 AM
No helmet is foolproof. Ask Michael Schumacher or Jules Bianchi.

I certainly don't take head injuries lightly, but I rather think having a helmet on would probably cause me to fall more times than it would protect me. (I'm just that clumsy.)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Isk8NYC on January 21, 2015, 08:36:02 AM
Maybe I wouldn't have bashed my scalp open if I'd had a helmet on?   88)

I don't know, nobody knows, nobody told me.   ;D  You would have needed a new helmet, at minimum, lol.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 21, 2015, 12:03:55 PM
riley876, thanks for sharing all of this great info.

I actually just got a Crasche, and they are pretty thin. I'll probably wear it during public skates (as I try desperately to avoid falling children).

Just as a side, I've been reading that the general public has been losing interest in figure skating. In the horse world, dressage is suffering the same fate. There's a joke among equestrians that helmets make the sport more... sporty, and if that doesn't help convince the gp, we should start lighting our riders on fire to make it more interesting. Maybe if skaters start wearing helmets like football players people will take it more seriously  :angel:
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 21, 2015, 01:00:25 PM
Just as a side, I've been reading that the general public has been losing interest in figure skating. In the horse world, dressage is suffering the same fate. There's a joke among equestrians that helmets make the sport more... sporty, and if that doesn't help convince the gp, we should start lighting our riders on fire to make it more interesting. Maybe if skaters start wearing helmets like football players people will take it more seriously  :angel:

Ha! maybe.

As an aside, actually I think both figure skating and dressage are suffering from the same root cause:   Both are finesse sports that appeal to grown ups, but the population is growing more childish.  Therefore the attraction is towards simple infantile things that go bang! and crash! instead.  e.g. in the skating world:  hockey, roller derby,  crashed ice.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Loops on January 21, 2015, 01:13:42 PM
Ha! maybe.

As an aside, actually I think both figure skating and dressage are suffering from the same root cause:   Both are finesse sports that appeal to grown ups, but the population is growing more childish.  Therefore the attraction is towards simple infantile things that go bang! and crash! instead.  e.g. in the skating world:  hockey, roller derby,  crashed ice.

You know, I agree with this.  Can't state it eloquently right now, but I've seen similar trends in education as well.  Anything that requires people to think too much/hard gets left by the wayside.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on January 21, 2015, 02:44:15 PM
No safety equipment, no matter how well it meets anyone's standards, can protect you completely from all possible hazards. Helmets do protect you to some extent, even minimalist ones. Likewise for gloves. Any helmet reduces surface abrasion, and reduces impact acceleration, and therefore can be good for some people and purposes. I.E., they may not prevent the bouncing brains, but they do reduce that - except in sports where the wearing of helmets has caused people to be more careless of their heads. (Which is why introducing helmets to a sport, as I mentioned before, invariably increases injuries - a statement you will find in any athletic training manual. As an example, more injuries / hour of play occur in American football than in rugby.)

I once took a bike ride, wearing a very lightweight minimalist (foam only, Giro brand) bike helmet. I awoke in a hospital room, post-surgery. (No memory of what had happened - hospitals deliberately give you drugs during anesthesia designed to destroy your short term memory, so you won't remember the pain.) The helmet was in pieces on the bedside table. The helmet hadn't protected me completely - but I believe it probably saved my life. So if someone tells me that helmets that don't pass ANSI construction worker protection standards are worthless, I won't believe them.

I personally happen to believe that fall and collision training are more important to preventing injury than safety equipment. But protective gear, whether or not it meets anyone's formal standards, can still be very useful, especially to those without such training. I personally don't wear a helmet (for figure skating). But I almost always wear gloves, long sleeve shirt or jacket, and long pants, which provide a lot of abrasion resistance. Abrasions are a lot more common than concussions, and I know from experience that they can lead to severe infections. And I have used helmets while bicycling, whitewater kayaking, rock climbing, and caving.

BTW, War and other contact "sports" aren't just a recent trend.

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: AgnesNitt on January 21, 2015, 04:12:17 PM
I haven't seen any, but I've heard a couple.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 21, 2015, 05:21:37 PM
I once took a bike ride, wearing a very lightweight minimalist (foam only, Giro brand) bike helmet. I awoke in a hospital room, post-surgery. (No memory of what had happened - hospitals deliberately give you drugs during anesthesia designed to destroy your short term memory, so you won't remember the pain.) The helmet was in pieces on the bedside table. The helmet hadn't protected me completely - but I believe it probably saved my life. So if someone tells me that helmets that don't pass ANSI construction worker protection standards are worthless, I won't believe them.

I agree.  For 99% of cases,  a hard shell doesn't achieve anything useful.   i.e. when the prime injury mechanism is a fall onto a flat surface.  There's lots of helmets available now that are essentially just expanded polystyrene foam with a big vinyl sticker over it,  even in skate(boarding) styles.  They are exceptionally light, almost unbelievably so.  I'd happily wear one of these for either skating or bike riding,  but like any polystyrene helmet,  only after I'd viciously attacked it with an apple coring tool first to reduce the effective foam density down to around 20kg/m³ for skating or 30kg/m³ for on-road biking.     For comparison, I've measured a CSPC rated skate/bike helmet (Pryme V2) that had 90kg/m³ foam.   I could jump up and down on this foam on one foot and it wouldn't compress a jot!   With this level of crapola out there, I'm not surprised the consensus is that helmets don't stop concussions.   This one sure wouldn't!   

If anyone wants to test foams themselves, here's a rough way:  Drop a 12lb bowling ball from 1 meter up onto the foam sitting on a concrete floor.  If it compresses all the way (thud!), it's too soft.  If it compresses only a touch or not at all (also thud!) it's too hard.   If it compresses most (but not all) of the way,  you've got foam that's good for medium impacts, like you might expect in skating falls.     

Alternatively use a brick on it's end.  The impact pressures are similar.  But harder to arrange consistent "flat end" drops without a chute like I made.

Remember the more compression you get, the softer the hit will be,  but only if it doesn't bottom out.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on January 22, 2015, 01:56:40 PM
ANSI standard construction hard hats use a re-usable suspension system (http://blog.whitecap.com/understanding-hard-hat-safety/) (using stretchable webbing) instead of foam to protect the top of the head. Type two ANSI standard hardhats (http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Hard-Hat.html) also use foam to protect the sides of the head.

Do you think an all-around suspension system would make more sense then foam, because ice skaters fall a lot, and it isn't practical to throw away the helmet every time?

I assume there have been studies of this sort of thing...
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 22, 2015, 02:11:46 PM
There is this:  http://www.xenith.com/products/football-helmets/x2-varsity-football-helmet/#better-protection

Which is effectively a suspension system.  I haven't seen test results, but the theory looks good. 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on January 22, 2015, 03:46:50 PM
There is this:  http://www.xenith.com/products/football-helmets/x2-varsity-football-helmet/#better-protection

Which is effectively a suspension system.  I haven't seen test results, but the theory looks good.

That is REALLY interesting. But I wonder what the repercussions of grabbing the mask are? Of course, it's penalized, but that doesn't stop the players from doing it. I would think that a helmet so fitted would potentially cause a greater threat of neck injury. Thoughts?

There is a company I work with that has tried "cone head" technology: http://www.devonaire.com/Devonaire-1014-Matrix-patented-Conehead-technology-Helmet-Brand-0-CPath-5-pid-1317.html

I haven't seen the helmet in person (not really "in style," so I haven't bought any), but it would be interesting to know if it works the way they claim it does, and if it makes a difference. I almost want to buy one just to open it up. A German company, Uvex, uses a suspension system. It gave me a terrible headache (most helmets do, but this one was particularly bad). I haven't fallen in it, so I can't report on if it helps! It's supposed to be one of the safest helmets on the market. (aren't they all?)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 22, 2015, 06:02:34 PM
The idea of diverting the impact energy sideways, rather than having to absorb it all directly "head-on", really intrigues me.  But I can't see how this conehead design actually achieves that.   I can see how it could for external small radius external impacts (and the website:  http://www.coneheadhelmets.com.au/about_c.html  shows that).   But would a full head pressing into the foam from the inside produced this spreading effect?   I'm sceptical.

The fact that it's dual-stage foam makes me a bit nervous too.   Dual stage or rising rate foams aren't optimal for reducing peak G loads.   The optimal is the foam producing a constant force pushback for the whole compression distance.   Though admittedly they do widen the range of speeds at which the foam provides some protection.

The optimal is a velocity sensitive system.  i.e. doubling the impact velocity should double the push back force, and halving should halve - so as to be able to compress significantly at any impact speed.   The only tech I know of that's fully capable of that is air bladders.   Though there's a few designs I've seen involving honeycombed silicone or plastics that might achieve that to some extent.   Links escape me right now though.     
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on January 23, 2015, 06:33:50 PM
I'm not quite sure what " Cone Head" is trying to achieve.

The way you protect bone from injury is very clear. You want a relatively uniform compression, which bone (a form of limestone) resists very well, but very little tension, sheer or torque, which have a strong tendency to fracture bone. It looks like they are trying to avoid skull fractures by squishing the skull from all sides. Good standard physics or engineering, based properly on the known physical properties of the materials involved. That much makes complete sensing.

But protecting the brain from bouncing around INSIDE the skull is a lot different. Unless you assume the skull compresses so much there is no room inside of it for such motion (which might do a lot of damage, because most soft tissue, probably including the brain, takes excess compression relatively poorly - it tends to burst.) About the only thing you can do is to reduce the acceleration, by using compression to slow down the impulse absorption over a longer distance. You also don't want the padding to bounce back much - you want something close to critical damping.

What you might really want is a foam that is partway between a close cell foam and an open cell foam, perfectly molded to fit the head, (how would you do that on a growing child?) that gradually accepts the compression at just the right speed to just barely finish compressing at the smallest possible size. It should be flexible and fully but gradually return to original shape, so you can take impacts many times.

It shouldn't weigh anything, or interfere with sweat and the movement of air when not protecting you.  :) It also should do nothing to reduce visibility.

In other words, it is the stuff of pipe dreams.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on January 24, 2015, 02:58:02 PM
Out of curiosity, what do you folks with more background in this area think of this one?  http://www.forcefieldheadbands.com/testdata.html
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on January 24, 2015, 03:20:29 PM
My take:

I like that they've bothered to at least test and publish the results.   But the test results really aren't showing it will protect against concussion,  though it'll probably reduce the severity of one.   How well it performs at other impact speeds is anyone's guess.   Almost certainly better than a hard foam helmet for the vast majority of skating incidents (which isn't saying much).   On the face it, it looks pretty similar to the ribcap, ice halo, crache etc.    About the same (inadequate) thickness of foam.   But still absolutely positively better than nothing.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: jbruced on January 24, 2015, 11:38:03 PM


But protecting the brain from bouncing around INSIDE the skull is a lot different. Unless you assume the skull compresses so much there is no room inside of it for such motion (which might do a lot of damage, because most soft tissue, probably including the brain, takes excess compression relatively poorly - it tends to burst.) About the only thing you can do is to reduce the acceleration, by using compression to slow down the impulse absorption over a longer distance. You also don't want the padding to bounce back much - you want something close to critical damping.

What you might really want is a foam that is partway between a close cell foam and an open cell foam, perfectly molded to fit the head, (how would you do that on a growing child?) that gradually accepts the compression at just the right speed to just barely finish compressing at the smallest possible size. It should be flexible and fully but gradually return to original shape, so you can take impacts many times.

It shouldn't weigh anything, or interfere with sweat and the movement of air when not protecting you.  :) It also should do nothing to reduce visibility.
Reading this made me think of memory foam. It may not meet the last few requirements about sweat and air movement though.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on February 10, 2015, 10:31:34 AM
Yesterday a young woman went down hard on the back of her head at adult skate. I didn't see what she was doing at the time but she had been working on spins. She hit hard enough that she was bleeding. A hockey trainer came over and gave her a quicky evaluation for a concussion, then told her boyfriend he didn't think she had a concussion but they should see a doctor anyway.

Really getting me to thinking about the Crasche head band.

Several of the other skaters wear knit hats doubled up that would give at least a little padding. I sweat so much in a helmet or cap that I really just want a headband. A few skaters wear hockey helmets, but I figure those are more for protecting your head against flying pucks that for protecting you against falls.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on February 10, 2015, 12:04:53 PM
I ordered the Ice Halo HD; it should arrive this week.  I've already got a Crasche middie and RibCap.  If folks can suggest some simple things I could do at home to compare them (besides putting them on and banging my head on the floor) I'm happy to try it and report back. 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on February 10, 2015, 08:56:24 PM

I ordered the Ice Halo HD; it should arrive this week.  I've already got a Crasche middie and RibCap.  If folks can suggest some simple things I could do at home to compare them (besides putting them on and banging my head on the floor) I'm happy to try it and report back.

I am dying imagining you banging your head on the floor!
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on February 11, 2015, 03:55:29 AM
Interesting half hour documentary on concussion in sports and long term effects (not directly skating related).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05102tf
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on February 16, 2015, 09:33:59 PM
And another month - another head smack.

Hockey girl (woman really) skating backwards (via usual ugly hockey inside edge butt wiggle technique),  without looking over her shoulder AT ALL,  skates into older guy,  who also was learning to skate backwards and wasn't looking over his shoulder either (but to be fair he was nearly stationary at the time).     He falls backwards onto butt and smacks head moderately and she falls over in semi-controlled way.

Luckily he was wearing a helmet.   Crappy blue rink freebie helmet, but nevertheless he seemed ok (though a bit shaken).

Saw this idiot hockey girl skating backwards without looking numerous times even after this.   Saw her almost took out one of her hockey friends too.   I had a friendly word with her that she MUST look over her shoulder.   To no avail it seems.   >:(   
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: celia on March 15, 2015, 05:14:15 PM
I've seen it a few times, but rarely.  This week I was the one that hit my head.  Doing the first mohawk of the five-step sequence, of all things.    I've hit my head skating maybe 3 times in my life, all like this one - kind of a brush of the head and slight knock but no substantial impact.  And each time it was doing something run-of-the-mill and came out of nowhere.  My coach thinks I stepped on the heel of my blade.  I admit I got up and kept going because I was immediately more concerned about getting the most out of my lesson and then going to work than anything else. 

However, twice in my life I think I might have had a concussion - once from a volleyball and once from a soccer ball accidentally kicked up into my face point-blank.  Both those times it took a little time to get back up and were followed by light nausea and dizziness and general lack of coordination.  And if that had happened on the ice this week, I would have stopped and seen a doctor. 

I think, though I'm not sure, that the times I've seen it the fall has been caused more often by footwork than by jumps.  A fall from a jump gives you more time to recover mid-fall, whether it is to get your feet under you so they hit the ice first (tailbone first seems to result in the head smack) or because there is just enough time for your body to realize it is happening and reflexively tuck your chin down.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: sk8lady on March 15, 2015, 08:02:00 PM
Seen many times, plus a number at hockey games (DS played all through school), and had two minor ones--one from getting whacked under the head by a kid wearing a helmet suddenly standing up (before USA Hockey mandated coaches wearing helmets) and knocking me across the rink, and one falling forward on my face from a misshapen salchow. A helmet wouldn't have helped either time, but most of the falls I've seen have been people falling over backwards and whacking their heads. A helmet reduces the impact and the concussions tend to be less serious. The serious concussions I've seen in hockey are from a hard elbow to the side of the head by the ear, where there is no protection, or heads getting slammed into the boards sideways.
A helmet would also have protected the head of the coach I skated with who fractured his skull falling headfirst into the boards.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on March 15, 2015, 10:17:17 PM
Not directly skating related but relevant to the topic.

This weekend I personally experienced 2 episodes where I was glad I wear a helmet skiing and snowboarding. Saturday night I hit a patch of ice snowboarding and was basically slammed down on my back where I felt my helmet bounce off the ice. Not sure if it would have been a concussion but it sure would have hurt. Today I was on skis learning to slide on a box in the progression park (a box is a sheet of teflon or plastic about 12" wide and 10-12 feet long supported by a big metal frame) and when I went off the far end I fell back and my helmet hit the corner of the frame. Not a real hard blow because my helmet wasn't damaged but my skull certainly would not have fared as well.

This convinced me of the worth of always wearing my helmet on the snow, even when it is in the 50s (or above) and I am sweating like crazy.

I have been thinking about getting a Craschie (sp?) or similar to wear when I skate. My ski helmet would be too heavy I think.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on March 15, 2015, 10:31:03 PM
What sort of foam does your helmet have?   

I ask, because most standards rated helmets use rock hard polystyrene foam, that doesn't compress a jot unless it's a very big hit.

Did you feel it compress?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on March 16, 2015, 07:53:19 AM
My ski helmet does have hard foam with soft foam inserts to adjust the fit. I don't think it did compress. That said the foam was softer than the ice would have been. I think they are more for protection from external objects (trees, metal frames on terrain park gear, snow guns, etc) as opposed to concussion protection (my opinion only) or to at least reduce the force received from hitting something. I never thought much about concussion protection before reading threads on this forum.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on May 05, 2015, 02:49:40 AM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/68277281/SurveyMonkeys-David-Goldberg-died-in-treadmill-accident

Not skating, but may as well have been.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on May 05, 2015, 02:18:52 PM
Sad.  Wear the cord when on a treadmill. Mandatory for captains of small boats.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on May 07, 2015, 01:49:18 PM
Sad.  Wear the cord when on a treadmill. Mandatory for captains of small boats.

I think wearing a cord (to a kill switch, I guess) on a treadmill might create a lot more hazards than not, because the cord could be caught in the mechanism.

It's a lot like the way many sea kayakers wear a cord that connects their wrist or boat to their paddle, so they won't loose it. But in more hazardous whitewater (and maybe surf) paddling, such a cord would very likely strangle you.

Having someone present to go for help might have helped. Much of the kayak community argues that you should never exercise alone, as I guess the treadmill user was doing. But realistically, it isn't always practical or convenient to exercise with others. Many of us sometimes love it when are are alone on a skating session, and would resent someone telling us we can't skate unless and until someone else shows up.

I think you just have to accept that there are elements of risk to any sport or exercise routine. We can try to take reasonable precautions, but if we can't take any risks, life is a lot less fun.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on May 07, 2015, 08:38:56 PM
Any time I'm out like that alone, at the rink (a rare event!) or in the field (woods, desert, etc…) or whatever, in the back of my mind I always think "if something happened to me right now, how long would it be before anyone noticed?"  Doesn't prevent me from doing whatever it is, but I'm aware of it.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on May 12, 2015, 06:12:11 PM
I've been lucky enough to skate by myself less than 10 times.   But, I always tell the rink cashier to check up on me every now and again.  Luckily, the session that usually goes empty (Wed at 11:00 a.m.) has a pick-up hockey game on it at 12:15.   So, people start showing up at the adjacent locker rooms around 11:30  I remember hearing a few people on skating forums talking about falling and blacking out after hitting their head, and not coming to so quickly.  So, I prefer to actually have someone on the ice or in the room.

(An unmanned boat with an outboard motor oftentimes circles back to the point it became unmanned due to the propeller's motion.   If the driver is in the water, he's hit.)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on May 12, 2015, 08:17:42 PM
What an awful thought about the boat. *shudder*

A boy in one of my daughters' class has been doing LTS for the past couple of months on Fridays. The one Friday we weren't there over spring break, he asked his mom to not wear a helmet, because my kids (who have been skating two years) don't. She said yes, and he fell forward, hit his head, and had a bad concussion. It's been over a month and he still has headaches. I feel so bad for him, and oddly guilty because he mostly started skating because of my kids. (I know, that's absurd, and I'm not torturing myself, just feel a little bad.)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: AgnesNitt on May 12, 2015, 08:27:23 PM
A boy in one of my daughters' class has been doing LTS for the past couple of months on Fridays. The one Friday we weren't there over spring break, he asked his mom to not wear a helmet, because my kids (who have been skating two years) don't. She said yes, and he fell forward, hit his head, and had a bad concussion. It's been over a month and he still has headaches. I feel so bad for him, and oddly guilty because he mostly started skating because of my kids. (I know, that's absurd, and I'm not torturing myself, just feel a little bad.)

My first question about this is: Was he skating with his hands in his pockets?  I know it must happen, but I don't see how you can fall forward and not brace your fall with your hands. Fall backwards and get a concussion, yes. Trip on a toepick/roll forward on a hockey blade and get a concussion when your hands and arms are there to brace you, no. Now I know that everyone will jump in and tell me how they fell on a jump, or a spin, or something and got a concussion. But this is a kid in LTS for two months. That means forward skating. Trip and fall forward with hands in pockets, yeah, I can see a concussion and dental work.

If I had a kid I'd sew their pockets shut. Just saying.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on May 12, 2015, 08:50:22 PM
I don't know if he had his hands in pockets or not. Truth be told, he and his mom are a little odd, so I didn't want to ask too many questions! All I know is she said he had a big goose egg on his forehead. But I could him imagine falling, putting his arms out and still snapping his head forward onto the ice.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on May 13, 2015, 08:02:56 PM
I thought a goose-egg was a good thing.  The swelling is outside the skull.  My daughter fell on a brick stoop when she was a toddler at Halloween.   We took  her to the ER with a big goose-egg on her head.  This was our first child.  The doctor assured us that she was fine, and a goose egg popping out is much better than no goose egg.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on May 13, 2015, 09:56:04 PM
My first question about this is: Was he skating with his hands in his pockets?  I know it must happen, but I don't see how you can fall forward and not brace your fall with your hands. Fall backwards and get a concussion, yes. Trip on a toepick/roll forward on a hockey blade and get a concussion when your hands and arms are there to brace you, no.


This was my reasoning for only leaving the 2 rear pads in my Crasche (so it would fit comfortably). I'm not as concerned about a forward fall as I am a backwards fall. Never had a fall (forward or backward) where my head did hit (knock on wood), but after wearing a Crasche for a few weeks I don't feel comfortable on the ice without it now. Same for my wrist guards. 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on May 13, 2015, 10:17:40 PM

I thought a goose-egg was a good thing.  The swelling is outside the skull.  My daughter fell on a brick stoop when she was a toddler at Halloween.   We took  her to the ER with a big goose-egg on her head.  This was our first child.  The doctor assured us that she was fine, and a goose egg popping out is much better than no goose egg.

That seems pretty unscientific to me. I can't see how the presence of a goose egg would preclude internal brain injury. But I am VERY glad that in your daughter's case it worked out that way!
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: amy1984 on May 14, 2015, 01:27:44 AM
That seems pretty unscientific to me. I can't see how the presence of a goose egg would preclude internal brain injury. But I am VERY glad that in your daughter's case it worked out that way!

This might sound gross and I don't know which signals which, but I've heard people say a certain type of goose egg (squishy vs. non squishy) is an indicator of a certain type of injury.  I'd look it up but it's late and I'm lazy. 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on May 14, 2015, 11:06:58 AM
That's what the ER doctor said.  If it bulges out, it's usually ok.  She was crying when it happened, but normal other than the goose egg when we got to the ER.  Kind of like this:  http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/emergencies/head_injury.html  So, he sent us home. 

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on May 14, 2015, 03:53:08 PM
Well, according to the Mom, in addition to the goose egg, he said the walls were wiggling and he had a headache, so it was pretty clear it was more than just a flesh wound. So it's not foolproof. That said, one of my kids used to make a habit of whacking her forehead when she was a toddler, and none of her goose eggs were ever accompanied by worse.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Neverdull44 on May 14, 2015, 05:29:30 PM
Watch out, the mom will try to sue the Learn to Skate program director/rink . . .
Title: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: twinskaters on May 14, 2015, 05:57:35 PM
Nah, she's not the type. And he was wearing his own skates.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skatermate on May 20, 2015, 03:42:25 PM
I wear my Halo HD. I just got it a few months ago. A tad more expensive than I'd like, but it's super comfy and not bulky. I had a major concussion a few years ago and wore a regular Ice Halo after that, but I wanted something thinner.  They finally came out with this new design http://icehalo.ca/products.php?id=28   I saw it on one of the other girls here and just had to have one too! I love it!

I asked them about the whole concussion thing and they say the same thing. The skull hits the ice, the brain keeps moving until it hits the inside of the skull - so they say their products are all designed to slow your head down when it hits the ice and therefore your brain is going slower when it hits the inside of your skull and so you don't get as bad a concussion if you do get one at all. Does that make sense? Seems like it to me, but I've already had a concussion ;-) maybe I'm already damaged haha!~
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on May 20, 2015, 05:00:10 PM
Pretty much on the point, but technically it's all about the trade-off between stopping distance and stopping force.

Imagine you are pushing a shopping trolley around (one's head), and that shopping trolley contains a pack of eggs (one's brain).

If you drive the shopping trolley blindly, at speed, into a brick wall, the eggs keep going and smash into the front of the trolley. (Very short stopping distance, maybe like a fraction of a millimeter, so the stopping forces are VERY high )

If you drive the shopping trolley at the same speed, but see the brick wall coming, and haul back on the shopping trolley at the last minute, the eggs will still slide forward, but with less force,  i.e. hopefully not enough to break them.    Clearly the sooner you see the brick wall coming, the more gently you can decelerate the trolley, and therefore the less force the eggs experience when they touch the front of the trolley.  Optimally you stop entirely before the actual crunch.

The foam in a helmet/halo/whatever, is providing that last minute controlled deceleration of the head and it's eggs cargo.   Which is why having sufficient foam thickness is SO critical, because it's all about starting the controlled deceleration early enough, i.e. before the brick wall (of head to ice) hits, so the forces are low enough to be survivable.   

Anyone for omelettes for breakfast?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: nicklaszlo on July 08, 2015, 10:15:17 PM
I have been recovering from a minor concussion for the last two weeks.  I got it attempting lobe two of the senior spirals.  It's a pretty weird (and inconvenient) experience.  One of the doctors said "no comment" when I asked if a helmet would have prevented the injury.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: ChristyRN on July 09, 2015, 07:33:23 PM
Ugh. Mine is still too recent for me to not feel sympathetic. How are you feeling/doing now? Any lingering problems?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: nicklaszlo on July 13, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
Ugh. Mine is still too recent for me to not feel sympathetic. How are you feeling/doing now? Any lingering problems?

Yes, after three weeks, tiredness, headaches, poor balance, weird vision.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: ChristyRN on July 13, 2015, 08:13:55 PM
I'm more eight months out and the only residual issues I have are memory problems that are a bit worse than they were before. Little things like the fact that I was bad with names and needed to make lists for more than four items.  Names take even longer for me to remember now and I have to make lists for more than three items, or I will forget at least one.

My coach also says two of my bronze MITF patterns deteriorated a great deal, but are finally getting back to passable range. She blames that on balance problems.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Sk8tmum on September 23, 2015, 04:47:56 PM
Okay, I'm going to be THAT poster.

a) girl in synchro team. Fell, hit head. 1.5 year recovery. 9 months in darkened room. Still has residual effects 3 years later.  Not a violent hit, just, a hit on the ice.
b) my DS watched a guy die in front of him from a hit on the head on the ice, while DS was stabilizing the skater's head and neck waiting for EMS. Not a bad fall, just a freak fall over backwards.
c) my DS has had 3 concussions. They did an MRI and a FMRI on him recently, and, fortunately, no damage seen. All 3 concussions from figure skating; one a freak slip out of a 2LZ, one a slide into the boards, and one a fall getting out of the way of an unobservant skater who cut him off going into a 3T. DS is/was a competitive skater, so it wasn't a weak skating thing.

I could keep going, but, I'm not going to.  My brothers were part of the old "rock 'em sock 'em" pre-helmet days, and concussions were just - what happened in hockey.  And, hanging around arenas, I see lots of head injuries. I would say 3 in the past week, 1 figure skater, one hockey, and one public skater.  None unskilled, just unlucky.

My DD works with people who have had TBI (Traumatic Brain Injuries) and sees lots of MRIs. The apparently "mildest" bumps can cause major damage; what looks like big bumps can be immaterial.  Helmets just cushion the fall and hold the skull intact. They do not protect from concussion - as noted, it is the brain "sloshing" around inside of the skull itself. And what they are seeing now is the long-term effects - the consequences are popping up years after the original injury.  Cheery thought, isn't it?

So. Learning how to fall and protect the head is a very good idea. My DS was able to avoid many potential head hits by using what he was taught in martial arts in terms of how to fall properly - it was just the freak out of control ones that injured him. But, you can also get the same nasty fall from walking down the street and tripping over the curb (like I did!) ... soooo ... not planning on putting him in bubble wrap, just yet.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on September 23, 2015, 05:34:34 PM
This was my reasoning for only leaving the 2 rear pads in my Crasche (so it would fit comfortably). I'm not as concerned about a forward fall as I am a backwards fall. Never had a fall (forward or backward) where my head did hit (knock on wood), but after wearing a Crasche for a few weeks I don't feel comfortable on the ice without it now. Same for my wrist guards.
I posted this a while back, but in light of my recent fall have revised my thinking.

My new Crasche fits a little looser so I can keep all of the pads in. The fall I had 2 weeks ago certainly needed the 2 side pads in the Crasche and possibly the front pads as well. I hit in the temple area, above and in front of my right ear. I had no bruising or marks on my shoulder, arms wrist or knees so I went sideways onto my right hip and right side of my head. I don't know if the Crasche would have lessened the impact of the fall but I believe it would.

I still have minor lingering headaches that are about a 2 on a 1-10 pain scale. My migraine pills knock it out but I am taking them 2 or 3 times a day. No lingering memory or cognitive issues as far as I can tell. The sports medicine doctor said the headaches may continue for a while. He also has me taking Coenzyme Q10 and magnesium for the headaches and doubling up on my fish oil for memory issues.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: lutefisk on September 24, 2015, 08:26:03 AM
My problem with head protection gear is that there are no hard standards for anything beyond a bicycle helmet.  ASMT provides voluntary standards for various activities but there is limited  data as to which type or brand of helmet, foam doughnut, etc. actually provides real protection.  In one report which I read, ASMT compared several different brands of lacrosse helmets (manufactures for lacrosse helmets tend to follow the ASMT's recommendations) and several hockey helmets.  All of the lacrosse helmets received passing marks during the ASMT's test.  Only one of the hockey helmets passed.  So, even in an on-ice sport which features collisions, fist fights and hard falls it appears that there isn't much attention given to any sort of voluntary industry standard.   

I'm still sitting at home, not allowed to drive or go to work (just about blown through all my sick leave; still have a good amount of vacation leave) after having fallen and whacking my head and shoulder on the ice back in early July.  I had a craniotomy and a broken humerus.  So far it appears that my outcome will be good, but before returning to the ice (my wife wants to burn my skates) I'd really like to get headgear which provides real protection and not just the illusion of protection.  When I do go back on the ice it will be interesting to discover just how much of the pre-crash skater remains.  I wish the ASMT would do a comparative test featuring the ice halo, crashe middie, ribcap etc.  I have a skateboard helmet, which like a bicycle helmet is supposed to be good for a single impact and then must to retired.  Concrete sports are obviously different from figure skating but at present this is what appears to offer the best protection.  I can't afford a second subdural hematoma.  If anyone knows of a link to a comparative test featuring the usual brands of protective headgear offered to skaters I'd love to see it.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on September 24, 2015, 08:44:44 AM
I'd love to see that too.  My gut feel is that things like the Ice Halo and Ribcap have more compressibility than the Crasche, which is hard but very thin, and therefore might provide better deceleration with a mild to moderate impact (one that could lead to concussion but maybe not skull trauma like a very hard/fast impact could).  But I'm not an expert, and I'd love hard data on it.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on September 24, 2015, 10:00:45 AM
FWIIW, people say peripheral vision is extremely important to hockey, and that is what limits hockey helmets. One hockey guy, who learned before helmets came into general hockey use, told me that even the helmets that are transparent fog up, blocking visibility. If you use chemicals to prevent fogging, the condensed sweat just creates a lot of water droplets on the surface that interferes with vision too. That's the reason, so he says, that pro hockey players usually wear very minimal helmets, that provide relatively little protection. He claimed that even the hard wire mesh at the front of hockey helmets interferes somewhat with vision and hockey play.

But you also need to remember that the primary thing that hockey helmets protect you against are fast flying puck impacts to the eyes. A situation rarely encountered by figure skaters in public and freestyle sessions, unless you skate at a very poorly managed ice rink.

Construction workers are most worried about heavy falling objects hitting the top of their heads.

I think speed skaters mostly worry about other skaters running into them with their skates when they are down on the ice.

I think figure skaters are most in danger (for their head) of getting their heads hurt by hitting the back of their heads on the ice, and perhaps secondarily, forehead and chin impacts on the ice - both in falls. And in fact, all the times I have seen a skater hurt who wasn't playing with sticks and pucks, it has been to the back of their heads, after falling stiffly backwards.

I think that many so-called-experts who try to develop standards for a general purpose protective helmet don't take into account that different sports tend to involve different risks - and that protective gear that protects against every possible threat in all activities will be too cumbersome and uncomfortable to be used. There is no reason why the same types of protective gear should be optimal for these very different situations, so we can mostly ignore helmet ratings designed for other activities.

E.g., if I'm right, soft compressibility at the back of the head, not hard shell abrasion resistance, is pretty much all that matters to us.

My personal intuition, which may be wrong, is that something like the Ice Halo HD (http://www.icehalo.ca), which resembles a  head-band and only cushions the top-back part of the head, not the central-back part of the head, may only offer borderline protection to figure skaters.

I'd bet that if you took a thin ski cap, and sewed two layers of foam - one open cell foam, one closed cell foam - into the back, it would do all you are mostly likely to need. Maybe even just the closed cell foam - e.g., carpet foam, say a 4" tall by 6" wide piece, for an average size adult. You might be able to get a scrap piece that you can cut down to that size from a carpet store, for $1 or $2 - though the salesperson may not consider it worth their time. BTW, carpet stores can also sell you open cell foam, if you want to use two layers.

BTW, the foam in my suggested design would serve two purposes - first, the gradual compression would reduce the deceleration suffered by the head when you fall backwards. Second, it would help prevent you from rolling the cap up too high to provide protection to the back of the head.  :)

But even that suggested design will cover enough of the head to make it harder to get rid of sweat and heat. And a lot of figure skaters, particularly ladies, care a lot about how they look, and may not want any portion of their head, especially the front and sides, covered - so it's far from perfect.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on September 24, 2015, 03:52:44 PM
I'd bet that if you took a thin ski cap

Or two!  Sew them together with the foam in between them.   Not that ski caps are particularly challenging to sew from scratch.   

, and sewed two layers of foam - one open cell foam, one closed cell foam - into the back, it would do all you are mostly likely to need. Maybe even just the closed cell foam - e.g., carpet foam, say a 4" tall by 6" wide piece, for an average size adult. You might be able to get a scrap piece that you can cut down to that size from a carpet store, for $1 or $2 - though the salesperson may not consider it worth their time. BTW, carpet stores can also sell you open cell foam, if you want to use two layers.

I extensively tested a bunch of foams, I'd be hesitant to recommend carpet foam.  It's just not dense enough.  Especially for the likely sub-par thickness you'll likely end up with in this setup.

My picks:
- Closed cell (i.e. dry) floral foam.   Absolutely has to be the closed cell one, the open cell ("wet") stuff isn't dense enough.  Downsides are that it's fragile, messy, and absolutely a one shot deal.    But the performance is superb.
- Expanding polyurethane foam.  i.e. "Space Invader" or other hardware store clone.   The trick is to make it dense enough, by squirting a bunch into a plastic soda bottle and quickly screwing the lid on (don't worry it won't explode, the vapour pressure is fairly low).  Then cut it open to get the foam out when it's dry.
- Good old polystyrene foam.   You need stuff that has some give, i.e. softer than bike helmet polystyrene,  but otherwise the higher density the better.

Less good picks:
- EVA foam.   It'll last well, but it's not really that great at absorbing energy.  i.e. you get the energy of hit straight back.  Which is OK for hip pads etc, but not a good thing for your brain.
- Long thin strips of corrugated cardboard rolled up into spirals (make sure you get the corregations vertical).   It's a crap shoot about how densely to roll it up,  but it works surprisingly well at absorbing energy.   Also needs lacquering to stop it absorbing water.

Highly NOT recommended:
- Any open cell foam.  Without the trapped air pockets of closed cell foam, it's just not hard enough.
- Bubble wrap.  Literally completely useless.
- D3O/Sorbothane/clones.  Hardens like concrete on impact, which is totally the opposite to what you need.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: ChristyRN on September 24, 2015, 08:01:52 PM


I'm still sitting at home, not allowed to drive or go to work (just about blown through all my sick leave; still have a good amount of vacation leave) after having fallen and whacking my head and shoulder on the ice back in early July.  I had a craniotomy and a broken humerus.  So far it appears that my outcome will be good, but before returning to the ice (my wife wants to burn my skates) I'd really like to get headgear which provides real protection and not just the illusion of protection. 

Did you tell us this and I missed it?? I came thisclose to a crani because they thought I had a hematoma too. I hope you are feeling better by now and can soon start resuming a normal(ish) life again.

And yeah, everybody I know wants to burn my skates and never allow me on the ice again.  I have a Crasche band and it seems ok so far. I haven't tested it yet and don't plan to.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on September 24, 2015, 10:15:17 PM
If anyone knows of a link to a comparative test featuring the usual brands of protective headgear offered to skaters I'd love to see it.

I do have a collection of helmet literature.   But the trouble is that all the recognised standards test only for killer-hits,  e.g. must be less than 300G at 5.5m/s for CSPC bike helmet standard.   300G is probably the line between "you'll recover eventually" and "you won't recover ever".  5.5m/s is near the speed of being hit by a car.    No one tests the little hits, e.g. 2m/s that you might get from your average figure skating half-saved SNAFU.   Consequently, the helmet makers all make helmets that probably also rate near 300G for these impacts too.   Simply because they use polystyrene foam that doesn't compress one jot at the lower impact speeds, so it may as well be concrete.    It's no wonder people think helmets don't stop concussions, because in general, they're right.

If you want the ultimate protection, IMHO you should follow my path - buy a hard shell skateboard/roller derby type helmet, rip out the foam, throw that away, and build a new foam interior from dry floral foam or constrained expanded polyurethane.   I tested the former to give < 50G at 4m/s (though that's about it's velocity limit, at much higher speeds the G's will be very high, likely exceeding 300G).  The latter is only slightly worse, but may perform better at higher speeds.

Anyway will zip up all my lit and put it somewhere.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on September 24, 2015, 10:30:04 PM
BTW, if anyone wants to send/lend me a crasche, rip cap, hockey helmet, etc,  I'm more than willing to put it on my drop test rig.

I highly doubt any of them are any good though.  The foam is just not thick enough.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on September 25, 2015, 05:11:19 PM
Riley876, can you tell us what type of tests you did, and what your criteria were? I know for sure that even the minimal thickness and crushability that wearing a reasonably thick pair of sweatpants provides made a huge difference to my hip impacts.  (This was before I learned how to fall, of course - now I don't need anything but gloves and a long sleeve shirt, and those only to prevent abrasion). I would guess that that only added about 1-2 mm to my deceleration distances - yet it was enough to prevent bruising. (Yes I know. Hips are much better padded than heads. But it shows that even a little bit can help a lot.) Compared to the 10 - 20 mm crushability of a decent carpet foam (which crushes that much with a few hundred PSI of pressure - it depends a lot on the foam), I would think that carpet foam would help a lot. I know that is a pretty crude way of estimating things, but I'm not sure how to get a better one.

I'm not even sure what criteria to use to prevent severe injury. Based on figure 12 in http://www.smf.org/docs/articles/hic/King_IRCOBI_2003.pdf you can possibly take a few hundred m/sec^2. But there are several factors that can affect deceleration.
 
Am I correct that all of the materials you like are good for single impact only? That isn't very practical. Almost no one will throw away a helmet because they had a minor fall. Carpet foam, OTOH, can compress zillions of time with essentially full recovery.

I'm also not sure how you calculated 2 m/s.

Consider an approximate free fall from standing height as worst case. (Not really - if you are going really fast, and your blade catches on something, you can go down faster. But it's a good first cut.) If we assume that your center of gravity is 1 m, then the standard formula for uniform acceleration at 1 g (essentially gives you the kinetic energy speed obtainable from converting your potential energy to motion)

  v^2 = 2*g*d

gives you about

v=4.43 m/s

And that is for uniform motion of your whole body. If you consider that your head will probably move faster, in a worst case backwards fall in which the back of your head smashes directly onto the ice, and the skater's body doesn't bend much, which seems pretty typical of what we see at ice rinks when people get badly hurt, you might estimate about twice that speed.

Incidentally, the facility where I work sends someone to the hospital or requires other emergency treatment about once a day. I don't know how many of those are head injuries, and how many of those are for figure skating - I think a lot less. Plus, that is for up to 6 ice surfaces (I don't think the person who told me that was counting the 6th surface, a separately managed curling rink, and I'm not sure it includes the separately managed hockey training center surface, though it is in the same building), depending on the season and what was counted. I think typical less intensely used single surface rinks send send someone to the hospital or require emergency services about once every week or so.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on September 25, 2015, 05:51:53 PM
Thread on my testing:   http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45084

Hip and heads need different strategies.  With hips, if you can simply spread the impact load you can reduce injury,  because muscles are quite compressable.   OTOH, if you land hard on the bone, ouch.    With heads, you can't avoid landing on a bone. 

Heads, it's all about minimising internal G forces, (more accurately it's about minimising the area under the time vs decel^2 curve, if you believe the HIC story).   There's also the Gadd Severity Index, which is similar, but a slightly different formula.

Single impact materials, I agree would be economically impractical for an typically horrendously overpriced commerical helmet,  but if you're DIYing it's doable.   And I firmly believe you can do a better job if you DIY.    A perfect single impact material literally halves the energy transfer vs a perfectly elastic object (e.g. a spring, or foams with full instant recovery).   I'll take that as the very easiest low hanging fruit.  i.e. it halves the HIC numbers.

Yes, 1m free fall is 4.4m/s.  2m free fall is about 6m/s.   But whilst it certainly possible to get these hits on ice,  going by the now 4 figure skating head hits I've personally witnessed,  none of them were even close to free fall velocity.   All were semi-saved.   So I pulled the 2m/s figure out of thin air,  as a very rough estimate.

Boxers apparently routinely take 75G ish punches.  And boxers routinely get concussions.  So I consider this my limit for "reasonably damage".  300G OTOH is an incredibly hard hit.   You have to witness the sound of an object hitting a floor at 300G to appreciate just how violent it is.   I cannot believe the 300G would not be on the verge of permanent noticeable damage.   Yes, of course all of this neglects rotational accelerations,  but I don't think that's a big risk for skater's falls.  Especially ice skater's falls, where the surface is effectively permanently lubricated.

I'm more than willing to test carpet foam.  In fact, I'll endevour to source some modern stuff.   But the 70s stuff under my current carpet, I can tell you now for sure it'll be WAY too soft.   Just by comparison with what I've already tested.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on September 27, 2015, 12:11:19 PM
BTW there is a HUGE difference between open and closed cell carpet foams. Open cell foam IS soft - like a sponge. A high quality closed cell carpet foam is hard to compress much with your fingers. Good closed cell carpet foam would be very roughly 1.5 - 2 cm thick. Maybe you could try more than one layer too.

Boxers are different from skaters. They get hit A LOT. Hopefully, skaters will rarely if ever impact their heads. So we can probably take a larger impact. So I think the biggest concern should be skull fractures, not repetitive brain injures. Skull fractures are a very serious injury, potentially even lethal, that you sometimes see in backwards falls at ice rinks.

A brick falling on a flat surface might be different from a head impact in skating falls. When your head hits, only a very small area takes the impact - which is what makes it very dangerous for skull fractures. That creates more bend (which creates tension, among other things) and sheer. Bones are not nearly as strong against tension and sheer forces as against compression.

If you don't want to fracture your skull, you should try to equalize the pressure over the entire outside of the skull, during the impact. That means you need the foam to apply roughly equal pressure everywhere, which means shaping the foam, and that it needs to cover as much of the head as possible. In principle, you also want the helmet to spread out impacts laterally, like Kevlar cloth would. (Look up how bullet proof vests work.) This is why I would be a little hesitant to assume that any soft helmet, like Ice Halo or Crasche, substitutes well for a good, well fit, hard one. I was only suggesting the cheap carpet foam solution, another soft solution, because I don't think many figure skaters are willing to wear a full coverage head helmet, because, they care too much how they look. In principle, one might place a few layers of Kevlar cloth next to the foam - but that would make my solution much more expensive!

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on September 28, 2015, 02:32:54 PM
Prior to my latest fall I thought protection to the back of the head was really mattered. On all of my forward falls I have always landed on my (padded knees) or on my wrist guards and my head never contacted the ice. My Crasche was very tight with all of the pads in so I was only using the back pads prior to when it got stolen. The hit I took 2 weeks ago falling was to the temple area of my head so at the least I needed to have the side pads and possibly the front pads in place as well to have any protection. That fall convinced me to order a replacement and wear it with all of the pads in place. Fortunately the new one is a little looser than the previous one so I can comfortably wear it with all of the pads in place.

On the topic of "protection" I too wish there was some type of standard and testing applied to the various headbands available. The construction of the Crasche leads me to believe it has to offer some type of concussion "mitigation".  It has a hard plastic outer layer and a 1/4" neoprene rubber inner layer. I don't know if it would have prevented me from getting a concussion altogether but I do believe it would not have been as severe. I also worry about skull fractures and again I think the Crasche would provide quite a bit of protection against a fracture.

I have noticed I am somewhat apprehensive each time I get on the ice now (4 times since fall). It does go away after a few minutes on the ice, but I don't remember having any apprehension when I got back on skis after my knee injury had healed. I believe the difference is this was a brain injury (mild but TBI none the less) where my knee was was a physical injury only.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: lutefisk on September 29, 2015, 11:49:12 AM
My recent fall also resulted in an impact near my right temple region.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Feebee on October 23, 2015, 03:44:06 PM
Kind of unrelated, but I took a pretty fast/hard fall the other day. It was mostly onto my side, fleshy part of my hip, so I didn't think much of it. My coach was across the ice at the far end, and wasn't sure if I hit my head. I had a pretty bad headache afterwards, and went to a walk-in clinic aftewards. The Dr. did some tests (checking pupils, eye tracking, balance, etc. ) and said I was ok, just to take it easy. I did, and after a long headachey day, realized I was just dehydrated! I drank a lot over a couple of hours, and poof, the headache disappeared.

HOWEVER, I woke up with a seriously strained neck, and now I realize it must be whiplash. Any of you ever experience whiplash from a fall? I've been icing it regularly, but I want to know how concerned I should be...If you've experienced this, how long did it take to recover (regain full range of motion and be able to skate again?)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on October 24, 2015, 09:00:36 AM
Also unrelated, but I took an unexpected fall the other day too.

I was watching the way hockey players burst super fast onto the ice. What they was to lean far forwards and running off their inside edges, and put everything into a fast sprint. It was annoying to be beat out in speed by a 10 year old hockey kid, who'd only been skating 7 years.

I decided to try similar sprints too.

Guess what? I discovered something amazing. Figure skates are not ideal for sprints on deep forward leans! "Toe pick!" Especially since I only switched from Dance to Freestyle blades a month or so ago, and am not yet used to freestyle toe picks.

I went down very fast. The trip over the toe pick rotated me down to the ice much faster than freefall. I landed on my knee, but managed to turn it into a forwards slide. But, despite a lot of fall practice, it hurt. And, shame on me, despite knowledge that I should ice it immediately, I didn't. So I got a bruise around one knee that lasted several days.

Gee, could there be a good reason that freestyle skaters are mostly taught to lean BACK while skating forwards?  :) Since the fall, I've tried sprinting that way too. It feels very awkward and inefficient, though that may be because I was trained by certain ice dance coaches to lean forwards during forward skating, and have practiced that for over 10 years.

I still think freestyle blades are evil.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: emitche on October 24, 2015, 12:13:52 PM
Yes. I took a bad fall once and got whiplash. That fall led to me purchasing a helmet because I wanted to avoid head injury in a future fall.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: JSHalo on November 03, 2015, 03:29:59 PM
This thread always makes me cringe when I come back to it. A week ago I slipped backwards out of a waltz jump and nearly smacked my head. I'll forever be thankful for a strong core that kept me from flopping like a rag. I'm either a glutton for punishment or I'm just really stupid, because I got back up and starting jumping again. Maybe one of these days my brain will repair itself and suddenly realise that none of this is a good idea  :sweat


I'm still sitting at home, not allowed to drive or go to work (just about blown through all my sick leave; still have a good amount of vacation leave) after having fallen and whacking my head and shoulder on the ice back in early July.  I had a craniotomy and a broken humerus.  So far it appears that my outcome will be good, but before returning to the ice (my wife wants to burn my skates) I'd really like to get headgear which provides real protection and not just the illusion of protection.  When I do go back on the ice it will be interesting to discover just how much of the pre-crash skater remains.

I hope you have a good recovery from here. I think a lot of us who have had brain injuries (of any sort) have a Before and After, and I hope this isn't the case for you. A large part of me still mourns for the "Before" version of myself. I speak pretty freely about my accidents and my surgery, but it's difficult for other people to understand why things are so different now. If you ever find yourself having any difficulties (even small things) there is a large network of people out there who are going through the same thing, so never be afraid to reach out.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: lutefisk on November 03, 2015, 04:18:31 PM
Thanks JSHalo.  I am now cleared to drive, go back to work and have returned to the ice.  After three public sessions things such as remembering the steps to simple ice dances that I previously knew my heart, and skills such as power pulls, inside 3s, etc. are slowly coming back.  I told my coach that I'd be in touch once I get to the point where lessons will not be a waste of time.  I'm wearing a Bern "Watts" skateboard helmet and am still researching the topic of protective head gear.  An individual commenting on one of my blog spot posts has tipped me towards a headband made by Force Field.  Unlike the Ice Halo and the Crashe Middie, the Force Field headband appears to comply with an ASMT standard (F 1045) recommended for hockey helmets.  Those interested can read more here:  http://www.forcefieldheadbands.com/testdata.html  At $15 to $20, depending on the model, these headbands seem reasonably priced and I plan to order one to see if it will fit within my existing Bern helmet.  If not I may wear the headband without the helmet--provided I can convince myself that I'll have adequate protection.  I can't afford another blow to the head at this point.   
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: AgnesNitt on November 03, 2015, 06:20:14 PM
I have a Force Field. It's for heading soccer balls. An Ice Halo would be better.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: lutefisk on November 03, 2015, 08:24:01 PM
I have a Force Field. It's for heading soccer balls. An Ice Halo would be better.

Agnes:  Is there any test data published on the ice halo?  I keep looking and hoping to discover some.
 
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on November 03, 2015, 08:41:09 PM
Agnes:  Is there any test data published on the ice halo?  I keep looking and hoping to discover some.

Buried somewhere on their web site there's a statement that they were tested and met certain standards for hockey (front, back and side impacts, I think but I'm not positive), but no actual data or citation.  Last time I went back looking for it I had trouble even finding that statement (though I think it's still there somewhere).
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: AgnesNitt on November 03, 2015, 09:06:21 PM
To my knowledge, and I just checked, there are no ASTM certification for figure skating helmets.

The closest thing is a roller skating helmet.

I actually contacted the Chair of ASTM with the question about figure skating helmets and never got an answer (natch),

ASTM covers speed skating, hockey, roller skating, lacrosse, skateboarding, trick (!) roller skating, in-line skating, and probably stuff I missed. But they don't even mention why they don't cover figure skating.

So without ASTM standards it's not possible what to say is good enough.

Thus, the ICE HALO people have to say "This product is designed to reduce the pain of a fall. Neither the manufacturer nor retailers are liable for injuries incurred while wearing this product, nor for injuries incurred while wearing this product incorrectly." Because lacking international standards there's nothing that can be determined.

They used to have some data on their website, so I guess a lawyer made them get rid of it.

I have one, and the foam is about the thickness and density of my old riding helmets, so I'm okay with it.

Given that the international standards association doesn't give a damn about figure skaters, we're all pretty much forced to make a decision on our own.

Foam thick as my riding helmet is my personal standard for now.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on November 03, 2015, 09:39:46 PM
In my mind, all the standards are so poor (i.e. unsuitable for the job), that it's of no great loss to not have a specific standard.   e.g. none of the standards specify anything about medium speed impacts.   

But if I had to pick the least worst standard to use, the skateboarding/trick-roller-skating F1492 is probably closest to the task.   F1492 at least specifies a low test line at the rear.   And skate helmets aren't restrictive visually at all, unlike hockey helmets.   You can also get EPP variants of F1492 helmets which are multi-hit rated,  and probably a bit better at lower speed hits than the rock hard polystyrene commonly employed in bike helmets.

If I only ice skated, I'd probably just make my own ice-halo style headband.   Trivial sewing project.  But I use a hard shell skate style helmet for outdoor skating anyway, and I don't actually give a damn if I look like a very lost derby girl on the ice anyway ;)

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: tstop4me on November 03, 2015, 09:42:06 PM
Thanks JSHalo.  I am now cleared to drive, go back to work and have returned to the ice.  After three public sessions things such as remembering the steps to simple ice dances that I previously knew my heart, and skills such as power pulls, inside 3s, etc. are slowly coming back.  I told my coach that I'd be in touch once I get to the point where lessons will not be a waste of time.  I'm wearing a Bern "Watts" skateboard helmet and am still researching the topic of protective head gear.  An individual commenting on one of my blog spot posts has tipped me towards a headband made by Force Field.  Unlike the Ice Halo and the Crashe Middie, the Force Field headband appears to comply with an ASMT standard (F 1045) recommended for hockey helmets.  Those interested can read more here:  http://www.forcefieldheadbands.com/testdata.html  At $15 to $20, depending on the model, these headbands seem reasonably priced and I plan to order one to see if it will fit within my existing Bern helmet.  If not I may wear the headband without the helmet--provided I can convince myself that I'll have adequate protection.  I can't afford another blow to the head at this point.   

Note that Virginia Tech recently tested hockey helmets (that meet current HECC standards) for protection against concussions.  Their results indicate that almost all fared poorly.  The full test report can be downloaded for free here:  http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10439-015-1278-7 .  A summary can be found here: http://www.beam.vt.edu/helmet/helmets_hockey.php.   Bauer responded that their helmets do meet current standards, but make no claims with respect to protection against concussions.  The current standards are focussed on protection against skull fractures.  Here's an informative summary video with interviews with representatives from Virginia Tech, Bauer, and HECC:  http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12564082/virginia-tech-study-hockey-helmets-finds-many-unsafe.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on November 03, 2015, 09:44:47 PM
Hockey helmets are always going to struggle, because the foam is too thin.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: beginner skater on November 04, 2015, 12:40:00 PM
Hmm, thinking I should think about head protection. Agnes Nitt, I think at one stage you put gel pads in your hat? But have changed to an Ice Halo? I was wondering what you think of the two?


 I am wondering about whether to make a head band with akton pads, which I already have, or import an Ice Halo to the UK. I'm not jumping, so it's freak falls, being knocked over, or losing my balance whilst attempting 3 turns that I need protection for. Can anyone advise?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: jjane45 on November 04, 2015, 01:56:51 PM
I am wondering about whether to make a head band with akton pads...

That's what I do. A band of akton pads around my head inside a winter hat.
I once owned an furry ice halo but it was a poor fit for my head and felt way too hot.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: beginner skater on November 05, 2015, 12:21:00 PM
How do you attach the band, both the ends to each other, and to the hat? I quite fancy the look of the furry ice halos, but feel it could look odd if I had to skate sleeveless because I was so warm  :D And I dont fancy the price especially with shipping & import tax  added
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: jjane45 on November 05, 2015, 02:52:39 PM
How do you attach the band, both the ends to each other, and to the hat?

I sew a very simple pocket and place the band inside. (previously I even used leftover akton pad pieces to put together the head band, each piece had its own cell in the pocket)
As long as pocket and hat both fits your head snugly, there is no need to attach them together. Makes cleaning easy.  Ear flap hats are the most secure for me. Skate safe and have fun :)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on February 21, 2016, 05:20:53 PM
Interview with Marie-France Dubreuil, Canadian Ice Dancer & Coach of Papadakis & Cizeron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rMoRDEvdio

She talks about Papadakis' concussion (@ 11:30 ish), and her own, from which she said she had symptoms (vertigo mainly) for *seven* years.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: emitche on February 23, 2016, 10:29:20 PM
Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: dlbritton on February 23, 2016, 11:22:04 PM
Last night I was showing my Crasche to another skater and she commented that she got a bad concussion skating but all she remembers is waking up in the CT scanner at the hospital. Now that has to be a disturbing experience.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on February 26, 2016, 12:16:06 PM
Last night I was showing my Crasche to another skater and she commented that she got a bad concussion skating but all she remembers is waking up in the CT scanner at the hospital. Now that has to be a disturbing experience.

I don't know if your friend had anesthesia before the CT scan, I had the same problem after a bike accident. I woke post-surgery with no memory from after starting the bike ride. None of those memories ever returned. Eventually I spoke to an EMT who remembered talking to me when they picked me up, and remembered where I had arranged to safely place my bike. (Though it proved too damaged to repair.)

As I've mentioned before, anesthesia for major surgery typically includes drugs which eliminate short term memory, so you won't remember the pain. You can specifically request that they leave this out. After that experience, I will.

The point being, it isn't always the concussion that makes you forget.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on February 26, 2016, 04:02:41 PM
As I've mentioned before, anesthesia for major surgery typically includes drugs which eliminate short term memory, so you won't remember the pain. You can specifically request that they leave this out. After that experience, I will.

Benzodiazepines are apparently particularly bad for this.  Of which Midazolam (aka Versed) is the usual.   

And flunitrazepam (a.k.a. Rohypnol) is a benzo that's often used for "drug facilitated sexual assault".    If that doesn't scare one away from benzos,  nothing will!
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on June 15, 2016, 08:56:33 PM
Reviving this thread... here's a couple of articles about some recent research on concussion prevention.  I'm not sure yet what I think of this, but it's an interesting approach.  At least it's acknowledging that helmets don't do much for concussion prevention.

http://www.si.com/edge/2016/06/15/concussion-prevention-technology-qcollar-neck-wearable-football-hockey
http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2016/06/15/Compression-collar-may-lower-effects-of-head-collisions-in-sports/3371466017594/
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on June 15, 2016, 10:15:11 PM
Very interesting.  Cheers.

Maybe it's an effective add-on, but I don't think they're advocating it instead of helmets?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: skategeek on June 15, 2016, 10:24:31 PM
I don't think so, since helmets prevent/reduce other sorts of of injuries.  I assume it's an additional protection.  (On the face of it, the idea of doing something that alters blood flow in the brain gives me the willies.  But I assume they know what they're doing...)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: alan on August 17, 2016, 08:02:21 PM
Only way is to wear a sports helmet, period. Even that only reduces the odds of a concussion, but does not give a guarantee.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: AgnesNitt on August 17, 2016, 08:29:12 PM
Two words: Contrecoup. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury)

Your brain bangs around on the inside of your skull. This will happen if you're wearing a helmet or not. The helmet may help, but helmets are mostly to reduce coup injuries.

The problem with helmets is that they encourage people to skate harder and faster when they don't have the skills to stop and thus actually are going faster when they hit. Also,(my belief( is that helmeted skater run into more people and hurt them while they walk away.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on August 17, 2016, 09:57:45 PM
Three more words:  Newton's Second Law.

Force = Mass * Acceleration.

i.e. if you can reduce the (de)acceleration, you proportionally reduce the forces (that lead to both coup and contracoup injuries).   i.e. increase the impact distance (i.e. the distance that the foam compresses) to increase the impact time, to reduce the acceleration, (given that the overall velocity change is fixed)

i.e. Acceleration = ChangeInVelocity / TimeThatChangeTakes   (to put it in non calculus terms)

Saying that properly designed helmets don't help is flying against basic physics.   And is a tautology anyway.

Sadly, most standards approved hard foam helmets aren't properly designed for the range of impacts you'd expect from figure skating.   Acid test: if the foam doesn't compress significantly during the impact, then it's worthless.    Soft foam helmets like Ice Halos and hockey skates are better.  At least their foam WILL compress some,  but they're typically too thin to be really protective for all but the lightest hits.

Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on August 18, 2016, 12:10:44 AM
It isn't necessarily true that force is ALL that matters in how much damage occurs to the brain.

To some extant, energy absorbed could be important, because that might affect the total brain deformation. I wonder if any helmets absorb much energy.

Just a thought. Obviously, I agree that reducing force is a good thing.

I'd love to know if soccer and volleyball players get many concussions.

And whether head injuries are less serious on sand-foundation rinks than concrete-foundation rinks, because the rink surface may deform to some extant too. They often say that jumping feels different depending on the foundation. The coldness/hardness of the ice might matter too.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on August 18, 2016, 02:03:05 AM
To some extant, energy absorbed could be important, because that might affect the total brain deformation. I wonder if any helmets absorb much energy.

Very little.  If you want to quantify it:  Work (i.e. Energy) = Force * Distance.   Where the distance is the amount of foam compression.   But it's not about energy.   Compare with the kinetic energy: E(k)=1/2mv2.   Where v really is delta V.   Which is going to be the same regardless of if the impact is on concrete, or a 3 meter deep foam pit.    Either way you go from lotsa velocity to zero velocity.  The energy is the same.  What matters is more how quickly it happens.   Most of the energy in the hit is transferred to the ground as a momentum exchange (like billiard balls).  Which includes all your body's energy/momentum too.

I suspect there's a limit, below which forces to the brain are entirely benign.   Similar concept to applying sub-fracture forces to a bone. 

There's a couple of accepted measures of damage,  once is called HIC (head injury criteria) and another called the Gadd Severity Index.   Both are similar, essentially the area under an acceleration-vs-time graph of the impact (with slightly different exponents and scaling factors).   They both infer that you can stand a short hard force better than a longer similarily hard force.    They both infer that if you spread your impact out (e.g. by using a crushable helmet) then the severity is less, even though the impact is longer, because the force is proportionally less.  The exponents in the indexes make this a winning proposition.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on August 18, 2016, 02:07:26 AM
And whether head injuries are less serious on sand-foundation rinks than concrete-foundation rinks, because the rink surface may deform to some extant too. They often say that jumping feels different depending on the foundation

Don't know, but I've fallen onto a plastic tile floor in such a way that my eyes were nearly at floor level.  I swear when I hit I saw an impact wave spread outwards from my location, like ripples on a pond.   Would not surprise me if that happens on ice too.   A few mm of deformation would definitively help.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on August 19, 2016, 03:16:09 PM
But it's not about energy... Either way you go from lotsa velocity to zero velocity.

OK, I said things wrong. :)

The energy from head motion can be absorbed in the skull and brain - or in the helmet. If none is absorbed by the helmet, the head (and helmet) will rebound more off the ice, at about the same speed, so the final velocity is not zero, so you get a larger velocity change. The force on the outside of the skull is the same, but it lasts twice as long, and can do more damage. Inside the head, depending on the relative timing of the rebound and the brain collision(s), you either get a larger velocity change and force on the brain, or more collisions of the brain with the skull. Either way, you get more damage.

If you see a numeric model of head damage that doesn't take head rebound into effect, it is obviously incorrect.

(BTW, an energy absorbing helmet would also reduce whiplash, because the soft body probably absorbs more energy and rebounds less than the more rigid head.)

An energy absorbing helmet can be much less thick to cushion the collision the same amount. Energy absorption should be a very important component of helmet design.

In terms of physics, it's the difference between a mostly elastic collision and a non-elastic collision. The more elastic collision can do much more damage to the structure of the colliding objects, because of the larger delta V.

I believe this is part of why bicycle and climbing helmets often use a crush-able foam - though such helmets are only good for one collision. And why construction and caving helmets often use suspension systems, which absorb energy by permanently stretching a strap. But they can't take many collisions either.

It's also part of why cars are designed to absorb collision energy in their front ends. The zone of the most severe damage includes the front end, but doesn't extend into the passenger compartment. And you get less rebound if the vehicles stick together. (But, yes, :) , cars can't take many collisions either, without substantial repair.)

I believe that skating helmets should be designed to take multiple falls (and hits, for hockey players), because most skaters take multiple falls (and hits). But you need a helmet that is much thicker to meet that requirement, because the obvious ways to design such a helmet absorb little energy.

I'm not sure if you can design an energy absorbing helmet that can take multiple collisions. An elastic closed cell foam absorbs very little energy, because the air compresses and expands outwards again almost adiabatically (without heat loss), and without structural or chemical change, after the collision. But crush-able foam and permanently stretched straps would be damaged by the collision, and lose future effectiveness. Do you know of an energy absorbing material that isn't damaged?
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: riley876 on August 19, 2016, 03:59:54 PM
Do you know of an energy absorbing material that isn't damaged?

Supposedly this is the claim to fame of the viscoelastic polyurethanes (D3O et al).   Supposedly they direct it sideways.   But I don't think they're right for helmets because they don't compress much.  i.e. still a sharp deceleration with high forces.   They're great at spreading the load to a large area,  but that's a secondary concern with helmets (and something a hard plastic shell is perfectly capable of anyway).

I'm convinced too that permanently deformable materials are better than 100% elastic materials, simply because they exhibit half the impact duration at the same peak forces.   The elastic materials push back for the second half of the impact.  So yes, I guess this is an energy storage issue,  but deformable materials solve it completely, so I don't see what extra fancy materials could do?   

Perhaps a deformable material that slowly reinflates after an impact so you don't have to buy a new one,  but personally I don't hit my head often enough for helmet replacement to be a problem.

My absolute favorite material is a closed cell floral foam,  largely because it's totally deformable, to the point where the impact force vs time curve is nearly a flat line.   But sadly it's too fragile for use in a practical helmet.   Maybe a thin epoxy over it would help though.

OTOH, a really beneficial technological advance would be a velocity sensitive foam.  i.e.  to give full compression at any speed of impact.   That would greatly reduce the needed thickness (or alternatively improve the protection).   Air bag systems would be even better, but I doubt the triggering issue is solvable for figure skating.
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: Query on August 20, 2016, 11:57:52 PM
I love the form fitting memory foam pillows. Though, in truth, they don't completely equalize pressure - they could be better.

For energy absorption, maybe a viscous fluid, in a bladder? And a regulated emergency fluid release valve could give you the velocity sensitivity you crave.

If memory foams are "viscoelastic polyurethanes", they are pretty heavy. So are most viscous fluids.

You could have a mechanism that inflates an air bag around the head, as well as a neck collar to protect the neck, when the head comes within a foot of the ice. :) But there are figure skating moves where the head skims just over the ice. So it should only trigger if the downwards velocity is too high. Pretty complicated mechanism. Heavy and bulky. It would never sell to the figure skating market.

Larry Niven solved similar problems using "stasis fields". Just before the collision, you stop time around the body. Work on that. :)
Title: Re: Head injuries - How often have you seen them?
Post by: VAsk8r on August 23, 2016, 09:15:47 PM
I feel like I've seen a lot of (mostly minor) head injuries in my 9 years of skating. More than any other kind of injury...and unfortunately adults seem to be by far the most susceptible.

I fell years ago on a 3-turn going into a flip jump and hit my forehead on the ice. I had to get 17 stitches to close the cut, but it healed really well, and I didn't have any other ill effects, not even a concussion.

Another time, I fell on a slip and hit the back of my head on the ice. It was only maybe six months after the cut, and I was mortified and tried to pretend like it hadn't happened (people saw me fall but nobody saw my head hit). I had whiplash for a few days, but with ice and rest, it got better.

We have one young skater at our rink who falls really hard, really often, and she hit her head once and got a concussion. For awhile after that, she wore one of those halo headbands.

Most of the adult skaters who I've talked to have hit their head. Maybe twice a year, I see an adult fall on public or in Learn to Skate and get a head injury. One was going in and out of consciousness and was taken away in an ambulance; most of the others insisted they were fine and just got off the ice.

It's scary, and I always feel a little shaken afterward.