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On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: phoenix on March 27, 2012, 10:44:53 AM

Title: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: phoenix on March 27, 2012, 10:44:53 AM
has anyone ever done this? I'm on 8' rocker blades, have been for forever. I'm looking at new blades & some of them have a 7' rocker. I've always struggled with spins and also with quick turns where you reverse the rotation, like the junior power pulls w/ quick rockers. I've also never felt great about forward counters & sometimes catch the back of the blade & go down because of it. I've wondered if having more rocker would help. My skate guy doesn't recommend it; says it will feel very tippy after the flatter blade.

I do pretty much only dance & moves.

Any comments appreciated! Thanks.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: icedancer on March 27, 2012, 11:48:57 AM
What blade are you in currently??
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on March 27, 2012, 03:27:33 PM
My skate guy doesn't recommend it; says it will feel very tippy after the flatter blade.

You might like the change, but you might not, and you may struggle to adjust to it which I think is why some recommend against it - but even considering that, I have known skaters who struggled simply going from a worn down version of a blade to a brand new one, not even changing blade models.  I think honestly a lot of the "tippy" feeling of a blade has to do with the spin rocker, not the rocker radius.  Some people have a harder time getting used to a new spin rocker than others - some people are just fine within a couple of hours on the ice, and others may take months and still never feel right on their blades.  The difference between a 7' and 8' radius is really marginal over the length of a skate blade... I don't think it really makes much difference. 

I too would like to know what you are skating in currently.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: LilJen on March 27, 2012, 03:53:18 PM
I switched about 6 weeks ago from 6-year-old Comets (original rocker was 8.5) AND boots/blades that were ever so slightly too long. My new blades are G4, which, reading between the advertisers "customized primary and secondary rocker blah blah blah" is about a 7-ft rocker. My new boots are shorter and wider (as they should be) and the blades are 1/4 inch shorter.

So, pretty drastic change, right? Yeah, but I'm mostly used to them. It's the rockiness that I notice the most. As in, if I'm off, I REALLY know it and must have gotten away with being on the wrong part of my very flat blade for a while in turns and spins. The sweet spot is in a slightly different place, too, because of the different boots. In spite of the differences, I can see that these blades are a big improvement. Already they're forcing me to stand up straighter--imagine that!!
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: phoenix on March 28, 2012, 06:24:05 PM
Thanks for the replies; i'm currently on Ultima Dance blades.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: icedancer on March 28, 2012, 07:57:56 PM
Oooh, I want to try those - or I am thinking actually of getting the Ultima Synchro because they are so much cheaper!! 8)

I am currently in MK Dance and really kind of hate them, have always kind of hated them... what were you thinking of trying???
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: fsk8r on March 29, 2012, 02:52:24 AM
Oooh, I want to try those - or I am thinking actually of getting the Ultima Synchro because they are so much cheaper!! 8)

That was my thought process exactly. I love my Synchro blades, but I can't really do a compare and contrast with them.

With regards to the 8ft to 7ft rocker, I switched from ISE Sterlings (8ft) to Ultima Legacy and Synchro (both 8ft) and my coach much prefers the Ultima. Her complaint with the ISE blades was that the rocker was that the spin rocker was too flat so I had nowhere to roll up onto my toe-picks for jumps and it was affecting my technique. I learnt in the switch that the rocker dimensions quoted don't really make much difference its the shape of the spin rocker which is most important.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sampaguita on March 29, 2012, 05:01:57 AM
What about going from 7' to 8'? My first skates had Quest Onyx Blades. Am moving to the Ultima Mirage. What should I expect to be normal? Should I be extra careful about the toepicks?
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: irenar5 on March 29, 2012, 01:12:42 PM
When moving from 7 to 8, I noticed that I could get a lot more of  glide for the push.  The blades were the same length. 
When I switched boots later, I went down 2 blade sizes (from 9 3/4 to 9 1/4)- so 1/2" less, but also in 8 ft rocker.  The shorter blade felt more like the 7 foot  rocker on the older blade! I felt like I had to push a bit harder. 
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Doubletoe on March 29, 2012, 05:07:00 PM
According to my blade guru, what's more important than the rocker radius (7' vs 8') is the shape of the rocker.  I wouldn't advise going from an 8' rocker to a 7' rocker because you will lose stability.  Instead, why not switch to another 8' blade that has a different rocker profile, i.e., a rounder/fuller rocker, a blade with a sweet spot that's farther forward or farther back, etc.?

Sampaguita -  I was able to go from the 7' MK Gold Star to the 8' Wilson Gold Seal with absolutely zero adjustment on jumps, spins, and turns because those two blades have the same rocker shape ("rocker profile").  The only thing that required adjustment was plain old backward stroking and backward crossovers.  My 8' blades were flatter behind the rocker so I needed to let my weight go farther back on my blades when skating backwards and it just felt really weird for the first week.  But once I got used to it, I loved the stability and extra glide and I will never go back to a 7' rocker now!
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on March 29, 2012, 06:42:52 PM
Thanks for the replies; i'm currently on Ultima Dance blades.

Are you looking to stay with dance blades or looking at freestyle blades?  You mention catching the back of your blade on turns and I wonder if you might be happier with the little extra length a freestyle blade would give ou even though you do dance... or maybe it's time to consider having two pairs of skates, one for moves and freestyle (even if that's more spinning than jumping) and another for dance.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: phoenix on March 29, 2012, 09:57:16 PM
Nope absolutely not on the freestyle blades. I couldn't even tell you the last time I attempted a jump. I'm strictly a dance girl!! (and moves too)
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: icedancer on March 29, 2012, 10:16:50 PM
According to my blade guru, what's more important than the rocker radius (7' vs 8') is the shape of the rocker.  I wouldn't advise going from an 8' rocker to a 7' rocker because you will lose stability.  Instead, why not switch to another 8' blade that has a different rocker profile, i.e., a rounder/fuller rocker, a blade with a sweet spot that's farther forward or farther back, etc.?


How does one get more information about what blades have what sort of rocker shape?  I am pretty sure that my problem with my MK dance has more to do with where the rocker sits under my foot than anything else - I wish Wilson made a decent dance blade!!!!!
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Query on March 30, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
How does one get more information about what blades have what sort of rocker shape?  I am pretty sure that my problem with my MK dance has more to do with where the rocker sits under my foot than anything else - I wish Wilson made a decent dance blade!!!!!

:angel Are your MK Dance 9-3/4"? How worn down, and how much do you want for them? I love MK Dance. :angel

You can measure blades by comparing tracings in the store, or using a rocker gauge like the one from iceskateology.com. I don't think MK/Wilson scale the spin rocker shape and length with the overall blade length, but you might check. If the pro has several pair, look at the left and right blades of each - one pair might please you better - they vary a lot.

Move the mounting point to change where the rocker sits under your foot. Obviously, that changes the toe pick and tail end positions too. The tail end can be ground off, or you can buy a shorter or longer blade. If the blade overhangs the boot so much it interferes with foot work, grind off the edge of the mounting plate.

You can reshape the spin rocker area and positioning, but it wastes metal, so consider what you want before you start. Little changes in the spin rocker make huge differences. Change .002 - .003 inches at a time.

If you can figure out all those crazy test rules, this should be simple!

::>) Celebrate becoming a Gold test judge (amazing!) by buying and trying every type of Dance blade. :) Tell us what you think.

Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: icedancer on March 30, 2012, 05:22:37 PM
:angel Are your MK Dance 9-3/4"? How worn down, and how much do you want for them? I love MK Dance. :angel

No sorry, they are 10 1/4 - I actually have two pairs...

If you can figure out all those crazy test rules, this should be simple!

::>) Celebrate becoming a Gold test judge (amazing!) by buying and trying every type of Dance blade. :) Tell us what you think.

I should celebrate by spending even more money????  LOL

I have tried Wilson Super Dance 99 - I liked the run and feel of them but they are just too darn short (about 1/2" shorter than MK Dance) - my favorite was the Wilson Dance (they are a Majestic with the backs cut off) - LOVED that blade but they don't make them anymore and for some reason I don't just want to buy a Majestic (cheap, cheap blade) and cut off the back because I think it might have been more than that...

I keep thinking of picking up some Ultima Sychro blades - they are a bit longer and have good picks, 8' rocker... and cheaper than Ultima Dance...

But I will probably put the Super Dance 99 on first and go from there...
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Query on March 30, 2012, 06:53:25 PM
Some people say the Riedell Eclipse Dance is most similar to the Wilson Dance, and is cheaper.

The Ultima Dance is way, way different from your MK Dance blades. They have a shape somewhat similar to a worn out MK Dance, in that a very small angular shift will take you from resting on the balls of your feet to resting on your toe pick, and in that there is less change in the rocker radius between the main rocker and the spin rocker than the MK Dance has. Some people love that, some people don't. I hated it - but I'm not a good enough skater to take advantage of the ability to make big differences in the way the blade performs with very small angular shifts of the foot.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: icedancer on March 30, 2012, 07:54:40 PM
Some people say the Riedell Eclipse Dance is most similar to the Wilson Dance, and is cheaper.

The Ultima Dance is way, way different from your MK Dance blades. They have a shape somewhat similar to a worn out MK Dance, in that a very small angular shift will take you from resting on the balls of your feet to resting on your toe pick, and in that there is less change in the rocker radius between the main rocker and the spin rocker than the MK Dance has. Some people love that, some people don't. I hated it - but I'm not a good enough skater to take advantage of the ability to make big differences in the way the blade performs with very small angular shifts of the foot.

Well, I don't like the MK Dance because I always feel like I am going up to the (non-existent) picks and it throws me off.  So having more of that sounds really really bad, at least for me.

I like the idea of that Eclipse blade and may go and take a look at it.  I am looking to spend less money on my next pair of blades especially after the $400+ for the Super Dance 99.

Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Cryo on April 02, 2012, 10:17:42 PM
 This video is from paramount skate blades site and discusses 7 vs.  8 foot rocker and spin radius.
http://www.paramountskates.com/techinfo.php

Here is another video. That they measure blade profiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3lJS-QWKEY&feature=relmfu

Cryo
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on April 03, 2012, 12:31:55 AM
Well, I don't like the MK Dance because I always feel like I am going up to the (non-existent) picks and it throws me off.  So having more of that sounds really really bad, at least for me.

I don't think it's just you - I've never skated on them (despite owning a pair for almost 15 years now) but I have heard they are designed to pitch your balance point forward on the blade compared to others - and you either like it, or you don't, there doesn't seem to be much inbetween.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Query on April 05, 2012, 05:51:22 PM
[MK Dance] I've never skated on them (despite owning a pair for almost 15 years now)

Cool! Are yours 9-3/4" - if so what would you sell them for?

--

BTW, the Broadbent gauge shown in the video, which I've seen, is based on a 3 point measurement, offset a small specific distance from the side rail. Therefore, a small scale bump in the rocker or in the thickness or side honing of the blade, or a fixable level bend or twist, can cause a large measured variation.

It makes sense to ask many people for their opinion of a blade. But all that might tell you is the much advertised fact that the MK Dance is overwhelmingly the most popular ice dance blade.

You can make the transition to the toe pick much more gradual by deliberately grinding back the sweet spot, to make the transition more gradual. It sounds like that is what you want. But you won't be able to feel when you are at the sweet spot - the exact opposite of what I want in a blade.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on April 05, 2012, 06:18:22 PM
Nope, they are (much) shorter.

Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: AgnesNitt on April 05, 2012, 06:32:49 PM
Nope, they are (much) shorter.



Tinkerbell feet!
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Hanca on April 24, 2012, 01:35:57 PM
Has anyone ever swapped from Phantom to Gold seal? I am wondering whether I am going to loose spins and whether twizzles will be much harder, considering that the blade is flatter? Spinning is generally hard for me, so not sure whether I wouldn't make it even worse. What I like on the picture of Gold seal is that the sweet spot there seems to be quite nicely curved , maybe more than Phantom so I thought it could help with spinning... (not sure if it is just an optical illusion - it can be deceiving to judge the shape from a picture)

By the way, I am managing the stability on Phantom fine, so I don't think the rocker 7 is as unstable as some skaters make it.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Doubletoe on April 24, 2012, 02:37:14 PM
Has anyone ever swapped from Phantom to Gold seal? I am wondering whether I am going to loose spins and whether twizzles will be much harder, considering that the blade is flatter? Spinning is generally hard for me, so not sure whether I wouldn't make it even worse. What I like on the picture of Gold seal is that the sweet spot there seems to be quite nicely curved , maybe more than Phantom so I thought it could help with spinning... (not sure if it is just an optical illusion - it can be deceiving to judge the shape from a picture)

By the way, I am managing the stability on Phantom fine, so I don't think the rocker 7 is as unstable as some skaters make it.

I predict an improvement in your spins when you switch to the Gold Seal, since the rocker is exactly like the Gold Star rocker shape, i.e., farther forward and rounder than the Phantom rocker and very good for spinning.  The Gold Seal is only flatter than the Phantom in the middle and back of the blade, so if your experience going from 7' to 8' is anything like mine, you will feel the difference in regular stroking, especially back crossovers.  You will probably need to get used to letting your weight go farther back on the blade, which you can afford to do because the blade is flatter.  You will also feel that added stability!  Not sure about twizzles.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Hanca on April 24, 2012, 04:25:36 PM
When everyone says that it will be much easier to glide - I am not sure if that's what I really need. I am able to generate a lot of speed quite easily, so I am wondering if my skating would be completely out of control with rocker 8? (I think I am the only one my coach says 'don't push!!!', whereas to others she always says Push!)

Is Gold seal - the spinning bit- is it more curved than Phantom, or is the same?

Twizzles probably will be a problem if it is flatter, won't it? (well, I suppose they can't be worse because mine are bad enough now!  ;D )
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: JSM on April 24, 2012, 05:05:52 PM
I went from a phantom to gold seals a few months ago.  My Phantoms were all ready flat from too many sharpenings, so I didn't think blade curvature was an issue. 

I saw a definite improvement in spins and turns, as well as my axel (this may be because I had an actual rocker to jump off of).

I did have trouble with toe jumps... The pick size was completely different, as was the placement of the toe pick (further forward than my phantom blades).

To be honest I'm still transitioning, but in the long run I think I'll be very happy with the change.

My twizzles were terrible both before and after!  That's something I'll just need practice on.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on April 25, 2012, 09:51:19 PM
Is Gold seal - the spinning bit- is it more curved than Phantom, or is the same?

The spin rocker is both shorter and rounder (smaller radius) than the Phantom, but it's not actually as huge of a difference as it seems to be described as.  How well you'll adapt to it really depends on your own skating technique - some people can switch between blades with little difficultly and be completely comfortable within one skating session while others may take longer to get used to a different rocker.

Quote
Twizzles probably will be a problem if it is flatter, won't it? (well, I suppose they can't be worse because mine are bad enough now!  ;D )

Honestly, I don't think so.. because again, it's a technique issue... the difference between 7' and 8' is really marginal over the length of the blade, so they probably won't be any 'worse' than before but it may take you a little while to get used to them on new blades, just like with spinning.. however that would be the case even if you simply went to a new version of your current blades and not to a different profile.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Query on April 26, 2012, 04:08:39 PM
I believe the Phantom is a slim-line blade - i.e., the working surface is thinner than the Gold Seal.

Some people say slim-line blades make twizzles somewhat easier to progress and spins somewhat harder to center. I don't know enough to be sure, or to know why it would make a difference.

Of course that is just one of several differences between the blades.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on April 26, 2012, 08:45:23 PM
Phantoms (and the phantom special version) are definitely not slim-line like a dance blade.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: Hanca on April 27, 2012, 04:39:17 AM
Thank you, guys! I decided to stick to Phantoms.  (I am not very good with changes!  :blush: )

It is quite shock to have a new blade, even if it is the same one as before. I think now I can appreciate what everyone means by blade not being stable (rocking forward and backwards). (did I really write a few post above that I have rocker 7 and have no problem with stability? I think I am taking my words back!) Oh dear, maybe I should have gone for anything with rocker 8?

But my turns are suddenly so easy.  :) Twizzles got even more dangerous.  ;D  It turns so quickly and effortlessly, that it feels completely out of control.

And the blades go so quickly, smoothly and efforlesly, that maybe it's a good job I didn't get the rocker 8. I love the speed, but it is seriously weird to have the same speed as usual without needing to even push. (I am used to push because I love speed but I think if I push now, that will be suicidal).

I have to say I am shocked about the difference between old blades and new blades. I knew that the more you sharpen the blades, the more flatter they become, but because this happens over several years, I don't think I fully appreciated how much different it feels.
Title: Re: Going from 8' to 7' rocker blades
Post by: sarahspins on April 27, 2012, 09:37:17 AM
I felt the same when I switched to my paramounts - the gliding was effortless and the turns "just happened" but that didn't last terribly long.. now they just feel like I expect them to :)