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81
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by Query on February 19, 2024, 06:14:03 PM »
Oh. You mean what I think of as the height of the exposed portion of the runner...

In other words, the height (vertical dimension when blade is placed on the ice) of the portion of the runner that has to fit in the gap.

I've got to dig my calipers out of storage.
82
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by tstop4me on February 19, 2024, 05:23:47 PM »
I will later take measurements of the thickness of my old Matrix I blades. Near the bottom of the blades, they were ground a little thinner than the rest of the runner - and in a way that pre-scratched them there - which I don't understand since they were Stainless 440 (440C??) alloy blades. It's hard to tell if any additional scratches I create could possibly matter. But measurements of the old Matrix I blades won't do anyone much good - people bought out Jackson Ultima's remaining stock rather quickly (I think a few weeks or less) after they stopped making them, and it's very hard to find them or the chassis for sale over the Internet.

I realize that the Matrix I blades have been discontinued many years now.  My question concerns the width, not the thickness, of the runner. To avoid ambiguity, what I mean by the width is shown in the attached pix (Paramount blade in this instance).  If you are able to use the Pro-Filer as is, the width of the Matrix I runner must be much greater than the width of the current Matrix runners; so I'm curious as to what it is.  The width will likely vary along the length of the blade.  A typical value near the middle will do.  Thanks.
83
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by tstop4me on February 19, 2024, 03:01:17 PM »
I'm largely unconcerned with cosmetic issues too. A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic. Intuitively, it makes sense, if you consider boats in water, and studded tires on ice - but those are a lot different. Without objective measurements under conditions similar to figure skating, it's hard to tell.

In my case, I'm personally certain that getting stronger would make much more difference than minor scratches.

To emphasize Kaitsu's response in Reply #37, why would scratches on surfaces that do not contact the ice at all cause slower glides?   Intuitively, it doesn't make sense at all (to me).   Are you concerned about some higher-order aerodynamic effects?
84
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by AlbaNY on February 19, 2024, 02:28:42 PM »
Query, your mention of cloth has made me think about stretching some jersey knit rag cloth inside the Profiler to minimise scratches.  Or another idea would be to cut pieces of index card or something to insert.  This could be switched out each time and not build up grit? 
85
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by Kaitsu on February 19, 2024, 01:35:23 PM »
A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic.
According to my understanding in this thread we have talked about chromed areas scratching, but I might have understood wrongly. If scratches in the chrome affects to the skating, problems is in the mental side. What I mean is that if your focus in in the wrong things, you may have problems.

Typically, blades are thinner from the areas where chrome has ground off. If so, at least in theory Pro-filer should not scratch the edges you us for skating. In some other thread(s) I have probably claimed that coarse chrome removal grinding affects to the skating. If I may correct my possible statement, I cannot tell how much that affect to the skating, but it is for sure that the edge is not perfect if one side of the edge is mirror finished and another side has grinding with deep scratches. If you sharpen your knife, you don’t use 3000 grit whetstones for one side and 40 grit stone for other side. Attached picture shows what is the problem, but I do not expect all to understand the point.

Printed tool works better than any other hand sharpening tools I have tested so far. Is it as good as original, that I cannot know as I have never tried Profiler. At least I am able to choose corseness and try polish power grinded hollow.
86
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by Query on February 19, 2024, 11:37:28 AM »
I'm largely unconcerned with cosmetic issues too. A few people on this forum have claimed they can tell they are slower with scratched blade sides, so maybe it isn't just cosmetic. Intuitively, it makes sense, if you consider boats in water, and studded tires on ice - but those are a lot different. Without objective measurements under conditions similar to figure skating, it's hard to tell.

In my case, I'm personally certain that getting stronger would make much more difference than minor scratches.

At the moment, I'm pleased with and used to what Pro-Filers do for me. Refinements are mostly a curiosity issue for me. But it would be very cool if Kaitsu were to offer his 3D printed tools, assuming they work well.

I've also thought about simply pulling an abrasive cylinder against the bottom of the blade, using a stretched cloth, pulled tight with my hands and fingers across the sides of the blade - but suspect that would be slower, and possibly harder to control.

I will later take measurements of the thickness of my old Matrix I blades. Near the bottom of the blades, they were ground a little thinner than the rest of the runner - and in a way that pre-scratched them there - which I don't understand since they were Stainless 440 (440C??) alloy blades. It's hard to tell if any additional scratches I create could possibly matter. But measurements of the old Matrix I blades won't do anyone much good - people bought out Jackson Ultima's remaining stock rather quickly (I think a few weeks or less) after they stopped making them, and it's very hard to find them or the chassis for sale over the Internet.

87
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by tstop4me on February 18, 2024, 02:13:36 PM »
Another issue, now that I think of it - I'm not sure the entire 2" length of the abrasive cylinder ("stone") is in contact with the blade - it seems like the rocker curvature would confine it to one short length of contact at a time. Does that mean a shorter tool would do as well?

You could get by with a shorter cylinder, but why would you?  Suppose you used a cylinder 1/2" long instead of 2" long.  You would still want a longer chassis to provide better longitudinal guiding and to make it easier to grasp (otherwise add a handle to make it easier to grasp).  The shorter cylinder would initially be cheaper than a longer one, but it would wear out faster (if you operate the existing Pro-Filer properly, you can spread out the wear over nearly the full length of the cylinder).
88
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by Query on February 17, 2024, 04:18:21 PM »
Holding the blade with the edges down, and pushing up with the sharpener would likely reduce the number of particles that get in between the chassis and polished surfaces, but I don't think it would eliminate them...

And maybe it would leave more particles next to the hollow surface - which might matter more.

I guess almost any abrasive process could have problems with scratching. Do you think it is better or worse with powered sharpening tools?

I've seen powered sharpening tools on which the tech failed to clean the filings off the surface on which the side of the blade glides - but that is a correctable error.

Another issue, now that I think of it - I'm not sure the entire 2" length of the abrasive cylinder ("stone") is in contact with the blade - it seems like the rocker curvature would confine it to one short length of contact at a time. Does that mean a shorter tool would do as well?
89
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by tstop4me on February 17, 2024, 05:16:14 AM »
Not if the tool is UNDER the blade. E.g., if you hold the tool with a vice, as I think Bill_S once suggested, or maybe in your hand, though holding it underneath with my hand makes it a little harder to center it.

As I've said before, I have no trained tool skills, but have to learn from my mistakes. So I have indeed made some scratches. I had to learn to lubricate the sides of the blade, by wetting them - which helps.

Holding the blade with the edges down, and pushing up with the sharpener would likely reduce the number of particles that get in between the chassis and polished surfaces, but I don't think it would eliminate them.  Some will still migrate upwards (particularly in the presence of a lubricant film) during operation.  And when you remove the tool from the blade to flip the orientation of the tool, rotate the cylinder, clean the cylinder, switch blades, or end the operation, it'll be difficult to prevent particles from becoming embedded in the walls of the slot eventually:  e.g., particles will tend to accumulate along the edges of the blade; as you remove the tool, the edges of the blade will likely contact the walls of the slot, and particles will be transferred from the edges of the blade to the walls of the slot.

And as you realize, the edges-down configuration is not ideal for viewing and for applying controlled pressure.  Overall awkward configuration for operation.  As I discussed before, I prefer to mount the blades sideways.

At any rate, I value functionality over cosmetics; however, I realize that many figure skaters place a premium on cosmetics.

90
The Pro Shop / Re: Pro-Filer Redirects to Wissota
« Last post by tstop4me on February 17, 2024, 05:15:39 AM »
Just a though: if Blademaster's variant on the Pro-Filer (which they don't seem to call Pro-Filer) has no extensions, just a gap, does that make it harder to align, because the gap isn't as high as the gap+extension? But does it also mean that the tool could sharpen some current generation Matrix and Paramount blades that Pro-Filer might have trouble with?

* The Blademaster website calls their product a "DIAMOND PROFILER".  But if you click on the photo of the complete kit, the packaging reads "PRO-FILER", and even still bears the "Edge SPECIALTIES" mark.  Don't know whether this is just a transitionary phase or what.

* What we don't know (and it's difficult to judge from the Blademaster photo) is how deep/high the slot/gap on the current version is compared with how deep/high the total slot/gap (taking into account the main body of the chassis plus the extension rails) of the original version is.

* I have Paramount blades (their Gold Seal version in 440C stainless steel).  When new, the runners are ~6 mm wide.  For the old Pro-Filer to work, I had to file the extension rails off completely. Needs more careful control.  Some versions of the latest intermediate-grade Paramount blades I saw on display have runners ~8 mm wide. Likely easier to handle.  The Matrix blades I saw on display had narrower runners, only ~4 mm wide.  Not sure that provides sufficient guide surfaces if you modified the chassis to accommodate the narrower runners. 

Approximately how wide are your old Matrix I runners?


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