Lacing skates, how tight is too tight?

[jjane45]

My answer: when feet are numb and hurting 5 minutes into the practice, making you stop to re-lace, and still skating much of the session in pain

I've been OK with my skates since a brief break-in period, and could skate hours without re-lacing or feeling pain. But apparently I was not lacing the skates tight enough because one can sort of fit a finger between lace and tongue of skates.

I am yet to play with different tightness for lacing. In the meanwhile, how tight do you lace your skates and how do you measure it? 

[Query]

I do mine pretty snug. I probably pull with 5-10 pounds of uniform tension - about the force which a lifted half gallon to gallon of water pulls on your hand - and initially leave a loose spot at the bottom, lace up, then start re-pulling at the bottom, so the tension goes all the way through. But what is good for me might not be good for you, as everyone has different circulation and boot stiffness. I do it a little looser when I'm not jumping, because there is no safety issue.

In first aid books, they say a wrap is dangerously tight if you loose any sensation. Numb isn't far from the point where cells start to die.

BTW, if the tongue is pretty thin, worn out, or not very well padded, you might be numb from lace bite rather than overall tightness, which can be fixed by doing something to pad or stiffen the tongue. You might also have extra tight spots in your boot that need to be stretched. Cold feet can make you numb too. But no matter what, I would never willingly make myself numb.

I know people who use stiff high level freestyle boots (or hockey boots) so they don't have to be tight. With a boot that is too stiff to flex, the ankle bones have to slide forward and back against the boot as their ankles flex and point (hence they use padding to prevent blisters). If you pulled laces too tight, the ankles couldn't slide, and they couldn't flex or point, which would make skating hard.

I use ice dance boots that are flexible enough to conform to my foot instead. An intermediate stiffness boot is expected to flex a little. In either case, lacing too tight would make the ankle flex almost impossible, so that is a place to stop too. Many coaches tell skaters to lace looser in the middle to allow a flex, and tie overhand knots (perhaps with an extra twist) around the loose area so the reduced tension doesn't spread. I suppose instead of stretching the boot, you could try to create lace loose spots around any place the boot is too tight.

BTW, having space between the skin or sock and the inside of the boot near the ankle bend allows a breakdown crease to form and expand, reducing the boot's lifetime, by about an order of magnitude. There is a clear trade-off between excessive tightness that is bad for you or makes it hard to skate, and boot lifetime. Very, very tight is good for the boot, but not good for you or your skating.

In summary: The goals of snug fit and lacing is to provide your ankles with the support you feel you need to be safe, to prevent blisters and callouses from forming due to slippage against the skin, to prevent any loss of control of the blade, and to slow the breakdown of the boot. Within those goals, any lacing style and tightness you like is good - as long as you aren't numb!

[Sk8tmum]

The doctrine as stated to our skaters:

The laces on the boot part must be tight enough that they don't have slack at all; if you can pull them and they move, they're too loose.  Which leads to the coach sending skater off the ice to relace the boots ... until they're tight enough.  In the ankle area, laced snugly enough that the tongue wraps securely around the ankle and the ankle portion wraps securely around the tongue; if the skater "bends" their knee and more than a finger can be slid between the back of the skate and the ankle, they're too loose (it's to avoid that situation where the skate isn't bending, but, the skater is bending their knees by having too much room in the top portion.) Obviously, the latter is adjusted during breakin period, but, a skater has to be able to bend their knees or the boots are too stiff.

Sounds to me like maybe your boots are too narrow, more than you're not lacing properly?  Were they fitted with loose or tight laces? 

[sarahspins]

Numbness/hurting past break-in sounds more like a fit or support issue than a lacing issue, though lacing certainly contributes... if you find you "have" to lace your skates to the point of cutting off circulation to your feet, long-term that is really NOT a good thing.  I would question would be why are you finding you need to lace so tightly?  If you weren't before and weren't having problems, and someone just told you to lace tighter, that IMO is not really a good enough reason to change - why fix what isn't broken?

I lace mine snugly but not excessively tight... my feet don't go numb or hurt, however I skate in really stiff boots.  I don't use bungas or anything else in my skates (I'm of the mind that apart from initial break-in or to treat a problem spot temporarily those shouldn't be needed).  I wear them my skates with just tights or thin socks, or occasionally barefoot

[fsk8r]

It depends where you're lacing them tight. Across the foot they don't need to be that tight. The laces don't want to be slack but they also don't want to be cutting off circulation. I have to make sure my boots across the foot are just right. The boots are the correct width fitting, but if I pull too tight they start digging in and cause pain.
I then adjust the tightness at other parts on the way through the heel/ankle and up through the hooks.

[jjane45]

I would question would be why are you finding you need to lace so tightly?  If you weren't before and weren't having problems, and someone just told you to lace tighter, that IMO is not really a good enough reason to change - why fix what isn't broken?

Group lesson coach checked everyone's skates (very kind of him) the other day, his rule of thumb: not tight enough if he can fit a finger between lace and tongue across the feet.

I want to find an more objective measure because I do not want ankle problems from jump landings. I noticed if the landing is less the perfect, I sometimes have a wonky tracing that curves from inside edge to outside, not a good thing if ankle support is lacking!

It depends where you're lacing them tight. Across the foot they don't need to be that tight.

That's what I've been taught by the pro shop. Tight by the ankle but not as tight across the feet. Well they also mentioned preferences vary.

The laces on the boot part must be tight enough that they don't have slack at all; if you can pull them and they move, they're too loose.  In the ankle area, laced snugly enough that the tongue wraps securely around the ankle and the ankle portion wraps securely around the tongue; if the skater "bends" their knee and more than a finger can be slid between the back of the skate and the ankle, they're too loose.

I see the "no slack" requirement is much like group lesson coach's. I was fitted in relatively tight laces, did not try to pull the lace though. Will check ankle bending as well.

BTW, if the tongue is pretty thin, worn out, or not very well padded, you might be numb from lace bite rather than overall tightness, which can be fixed by doing something to pad or stiffen the tongue. You might also have extra tight spots in your boot that need to be stretched.

The tongue still has a lots of padding in my Jackson competitor boots IMO. The pain primarily came from the ball of landing foot, chances are stretching may help! My skates are size B, I have slightly wide feet but not a C. Will check with pro shop at the next visit!

Thank you very much for everyone's tips and suggestions. I am all ears!

[Sk8tmum]

The coach explanation for the tight across the foot is that the foot should be held securely in the boot with no ability to slip in the boot as that improves the ability to hold landings,and also reduces blisters etc as the foot cannot slide around and rub.   It also lets the boot "stretch" - and makes for wear issues, as it means that, with varying tensions on the lace (it's easier to make it consistent when they're all pulled to the same easily checked tensile state) there are unequal stresses across the boot (i.e. some are looser, some are tighter giving unequal tension, and the foot slipping around means that there is pressure against the side of the boot as the foot moves around). 

When DD starts sliding out of her landings, we immediately check her laces; without fail, that'll be the day that she was sloppy in lacing them up.  She immediately notices that she is far more secure and stable when the boot fits snugly around her foot.

[irenar5]

The numbness on the ball of the foot could be due to improper arch support.  If you switched boot manufacturers or even went to a different last, the arch support may be different and it takes a while to get  used to.  From my understanding, Jacksons have a pretty nice supportive sole.  I have a fairly high arch and really don't like the feeling of arch support, whereas other people really need the support for their arches.  So, maybe try out different insoles?

On the lacing side I pull tightly across the toes and instep , but at the end the laces end up not really tight.  I can't really slide anything between the laces, but I can move them up and down about a 1/4 inch.   The tightest part is across the ankle- I really pull hard across the 2 bottom hooks, then a tad less tight across the third hook. Then I loop the lace around the lace bar and tie it around the top hook without any pulling at all. Here the lace follows the contour of the boot without any slack, but it is not tightened at all.   I have Riedell 875  which are a pretty stiff boot, and this lacing pattern has worked well for me.

I find that after a warmup I have to tighten the laces occasionally, but it is never across the instep, only in the ankle area.  I mostly go by feel- if my heel feels like it is not as secure, then I relace (predominantly the right foot is the culprit, but I do the left as well so that they are even)
After relacing I always do cross strokes, power pulls and a couple of loop jumps and they seem to redistribute the laces pretty well.

[Query]

JJane, if you have high arches, and don't feel like the boots support you, does that mean there isn't firm pressure at all times between the bottom of your feet and the foot bed, so you don't have complete control over what the boot and blade are doing?

No doubt Jackson insoles are high quality. But I don't expect generic insoles designed for the manufacturers guess at average feet to substitute for getting custom orthotics designed for your feet, or for the equivalent action of adding extra tape or foam under the parts of the insole where you feel that extra support is needed.

There is always another possibility. Time management is difficult in group lessons. Coach may not have had time to analyze and fix subtleties in the seconds he can devote to watching you.

[nicklaszlo]

I want to find an more objective measure

Yay objective measures!  We need a force gauge and a large random sample of skaters who will lace their skates for us!  Must control for lace type, boot type and size, and skating level.  Also different tensions along different parts of the lace.

[karne]

My rule of thumb is that I must be able to wriggle my toes!

[sarahspins]

No doubt Jackson insoles are high quality. But I don't expect generic insoles designed for the manufacturers guess at average feet to substitute for getting custom orthotics designed for your feet, or for the equivalent action of adding extra tape or foam under the parts of the insole where you feel that extra support is needed.

Agreed, I was actually showing someone yesterday all of the "modifications" that I've made to my insoles when she came to me asking why her feet hurt so much on the ice.  Taken individually all of the adjustments I've made seem really minor, but for me it's the difference between being able to go skate for hours comfortably without feeling like my feet need a break, or being in agony with cramping arches/feet within minutes.  It's amazing how much of a difference it makes for me.  I pronate and have high arches, so proper footbed support is vital

[JHarer]

I always lace snug through the foot, tight at the ankle/heel and snug at the top of the boot. My boots are 3 months old and I am still not lacing the top hook yet. I know when & where I've laced too tight, if my toes become numb it's too tight on the ankle, if my arches cramp it's too tight in the foot.

[FigureSpins]

I don't pull tight at the toe box; I have the laces lay flat for the first two eyelets.

Across the top of the foot, laces are tight like guitar strings: you can strum or pluck them and they go back where they were. 

I do a half-knot at the top of the eyelets, then lace up the hooks. 
I leave a little slack in the hook area, but not much.   
I want a bit of bend, but if they're too loose, the laces "pop off" the hooks when you move.

(That happened to me last night - I couldn't figure out what I skated over, but I knew there was something on the ice.  It was my laces - I thought my sock had fallen down, but the lace had popped off a hook.  I made my student laugh by doing one-foot power pulls to the hockey boxes across the rink.  "Oh, is that why we have to learn those?"  *chuckles*)

My philosophy is, if you can pull up a loop and it stays up, retie the laces more tightly.

[jjane45]

Thank you everyone for your excellent inputs!

I am using superfleet yellow insoles, hopefully that's enough support. Last practice I did not go as tight but still had pains in the landing foot. Noticed it's primarily from Lutz drills (similar to last practice), while other jumps were fine. Skating technique issues too, sigh.

It's not sharpening time yet, but maybe I should visit the pro shop anyways to make sure.

[Query]

Pain is evil!

You area trains some of the greatest figure skaters in the world. It has one or two very well known boot technicians. Why not call the boot maker for suggestions and maybe a referral? If the boots are almost new and custom, the manufacturer will probably make good on the fit for free. If the shop who sold them is any good, it's only fair to try them first and see if they can't fix the problem.

---

My expert claims many great skaters have won medals on lousy skates. But if you want an excuse for an imperfect landing, here are three more:

(1) Your blade is bent or twisted. Check the straightness with a straight edge, at a couple different heights. If your blades are designed so that the two sides aren't parallel - place one straight edge against each side and see if the deviation is properly symmetric. Good technicians fix bent blades, up to a point. If unfixable, your store should return them to the manufacturer.

(2) Your edges aren't even. Turn the boot upside down, and lay a nickel against the two edges and see if it is at right angles to the sides of the blade. Try this at many points along the blade.

(3) Your rocker profile has bumps or flat spots, that cause you to jerk as you roll along the blade. Lay the blade against a piece of paper (the skate gets in the way, but do the best you can), and trace the rocker profile along the edge with a pencil. Slide the blade along your tracing and check for little irregularities. (Slow variations in rocker are very common, and won't create a jerk; the rocker changes at the sweet spot(s) near the front are a design element, not a defect.)

I think most sharpeners who have had more than a few minutes of training do the first two tests as a matter of course, unless they have to work fast. They seem to be very well known. The last test is totally unfair to the sharpener, because almost no one does it. But it's still a great excuse!

P.S. Fancy tools exist to test these things more accurately.

[SynchKat]

As a teen I'd get horrible cramping in my arches.  My coach shaved the arch that was art of the insole off determining that it was in the wrong place for my foot.  We later learned my skates were too big.  Could maybe this be a problem?  Take out your insole and see were the imprint of your foot is.

As for lacing skates, I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way it's what feels comfortable to you.  I like mine tight.  Like as tight as possible because they always loosen while skating.  I also immediately after tying them bend my knees to get them worked in.  I'm a bit odd in this practice though I think.