MITF: you "think" you are doing it but coach / judge doesn't think so?

[jjane45]

I have not tested anything MITF but often practice bits and pieces that coaches introduced. Following a discussion with group lesson coach I looked up the moves patterns and feel that I am familiar with moves up to silver / pre-juv. But doing something does not mean doing it CORRECTLY, I bet Coach cringes when he sees me warm up with moves in completely "unorthodox" ways (lol) but does not have time to correct them as it's not our priority.

Totally out of curiosity, I wonder if there are specific MITF elements that you THINK you are doing alright while coach thinks completely otherwise. Or coach thinks the skater is ready to test and skater skates the same as practice, but the judge thinks completely otherwise. If so, which areas? (power? posture? speed? edge quality? knee bend? evil toe push? spiral height? incorrect step?...)

Thoughts and stories please!!

[techskater]

All over Chicagoland, the expectations are quite high, other than Pre-pre/PreBronze and most coaches are well aware of that level of expectation.    But I have gone to test sessions where it was very odd - one the kids from a particular club (not the hosting club) were doing 1/2 of the Prejuv moves and finishing (before the power stroking was combined) and the judges were perplexed.   

[hopskipjump]

My dd thought her FI/BO Three-Turns were test-worthy.  That was until she saw a video - she looks like she has hiccups!  She has been working on them for several months and they are starting to look better.  Sometimes she needs a more objective view to understand what needs a little more work.

[icefrog]

All over Chicagoland, the expectations are quite high, other than Pre-pre/PreBronze and most coaches are well aware of that level of expectation.    But I have gone to test sessions where it was very odd - one the kids from a particular club (not the hosting club) were doing 1/2 of the Prejuv moves and finishing (before the power stroking was combined) and the judges were perplexed.   

What did the coach do? I'm guessing the kid got a retry lol

[sarahspins]

Honestly simply watching myself do them on video shows me a LOT.... some are stronger than I thought, and others that I thought were fine need loads of work

[jjane45]

All over Chicagoland, the expectations are quite high, other than Pre-pre/PreBronze and most coaches are well aware of that level of expectation.    But I have gone to test sessions where it was very odd - one the kids from a particular club (not the hosting club) were doing 1/2 of the Prejuv moves and finishing (before the power stroking was combined) and the judges were perplexed.   

Thank you for sharing techskater! Could the poor kid be too nervous and forgot the pattern? (but prejuv sounds too advanced for that) If the coach taught an incomplete pattern I'd expect a conversation between judge and coach

Honestly simply watching myself do them on video shows me a LOT.... some are stronger than I thought, and others that I thought were fine need loads of work

Yeah video absolutely helps. I was just thinking the MITF is not as straightforward: how much power is enough? how clean does the bracket needs to be? etc. etc.

[Kim to the Max]

I was just thinking the MITF is not as straightforward: how much power is enough? how clean does the bracket needs to be? etc. etc.

I can say that you never know those things. When I took intermediate (first test I took when I came back) it had the power circles in it. Well, by the time I was done and stopping at the end of those, I was hitting the wall. I literally stopped from full speed inches from the wall. The judges told me there wasn't enough power and that I was toe pushing that test (I know for a fact that I don't toe push...I've never gotten that comment - ever). Pretty much every test that day failed minus some dances - that includes the pre-pre moves tests. Somedays, you just don't know what the judges are looking for.

[nicklaszlo]

There are also traditional introductory and concluding patters which are not found in the rule book.

[Skittl1321]

There are also traditional introductory and concluding patters which are not found in the rule book.

But you don't have to do them.  After my bronze moves I had a judge ask me what coach came up with my intro patterns (I didn't bring a coach to the test).  She said she hadn't seen them before (they were designed to hide my weakness with CCW turns!)

The coach who suggested them actually showed me youtube videos of high level skaters doing them (likely not for the same reason) before I was willing to deviate from the norm.

I also found out I held my free leg differntly on 5-step mohawk than most people after posting videos here.

As for an idea that I think I'm doing right, but no one else does...my knees always feel more bent than they are, and I always feel faster than I am.

[icedancer]

As a judge I can see where it gets confusing for the skaters and coaches.  Some judges have more of a dance background which can really color their expectations for what they would like to see on a Moves test, for example (I am one of those ice-dancer judges) - so it is good if the panels are a mix of dance/non-dance judges but sometimes it can't be avoided to have all dance judges on the panels.

I have seen all sorts of stuff happen at test sessions.  A coach can prepare a student as much as humanly possibly but sometimes the skater looks like a "deer in the headlights" and they don't seem to have much awareness of what they are doing.  I have seen skaters with no intro steps, too many intro steps, starting the move in the wrong place, doing the same foot twice (and were given a retry where it was explained to them that they needed to do the move to one side and then the other, repeat the mistake of doing the same foot twice (which subsequently caused them to get a "retry").

As far as putting a test out there before it is ready to test the biggest mistake I see both coaches and skaters mistakening thinking they are ready is on the Intermediate MITF - to me there is a HUGE jump between Juvenile and Intermediate just in terms of the degree of composure, flow over the ice, power, presentation.  It is not just about being able to do the Moves but about showing me that you are really ready to be an Intermediate skater.  If that makes any sense.

Skittl - on the 5-step mohawk, do you mean that your leg position on the BO edge is different than most skaters you have seen?  For that edge the rulebook doesn't state whether it is to be done with the free foot in front or behind as a brush-back.  Because I am a dancer, I kept my free foot in front rather athan brushing back (besides on the Bronze test you do a brush back on the Alternating Outside Edge/cross-over thingy pattern)- I passed the test but one trial judge thought that it shouldn't be done that way and failed that Moves for me - I still think the book doesn't really say how it is supposed to be done and if a skater does it that way and does it correctly then I am happy.

But there are other Moves such as the F and B Power stroking where the judges inmy area don't always agree on how the back power stroking should be done -so I always think that it is great that there are 3 judges on any panel so that you get a spread of ideas and expectations for any given test.

[Skittl1321]

Some judges have more of a dance background which can really color their expectations for what they would like to see on a Moves test, for example (I am one of those ice-dancer judges)

This is really frustrating. Judges should be judging for what the test requires, not for what they want to see.  USFS really should make more clear what the test does require, as "passing standard" clearly varies by judge and region.

Skittl - on the 5-step mohawk, do you mean that your leg position on the BO edge is different than most skaters you have seen?

Yep- after people commented here I did it "weird" I watched other skaters at my rink, and everyone else holds their free foot differently from me, so I don't know where I got this from...but my coach never said anything.
  (man, that was a long time ago.  Why have I not passed freeskate yet? I've got to stop getting hurt)

(This video shows my "weird" entry:   It was designed so that I do the turn before I start moving fast.  If I skate across the rink, then I freak out and can't turn.  A major stumbling block in the beginning of the 3-turn patterns!  I think moves like this, where that isn't supposed to be part of the move should get to go either way around the rink!)

[icedancer]

This is really frustrating. Judges should be judging for what the test requires, not for what they want to see.  USFS really should make more clear what the test does require, as "passing standard" clearly varies by judge and region.

We all have different backgrounds and judging is subjective. That is why you have three judges on the panel.  Maybe some day there will be more of an IJS approach to judging where every little thing gets a number that can be added up but I don't see that happening anytime soon.  We do the best we can to be objective and fair to the skaters.  For instance, I don't expect a non-dancer to look like a dancer, but I do expect true edges and neat feet for most skaters and definitely moreso as the skaters ascends through the tests.

Yep- after people commented here I did it "weird" I watched other skaters at my rink, and everyone else holds their free foot differently from me, so I don't know where I got this from...but my coach never said anything.
  (man, that was a long time ago.  Why have I not passed freeskate yet? I've got to stop getting hurt)

Yeah, this is how I did it too - I think it is fine.  the major mistake that most people do on this one is to step on a flat on step 4. You have to bring it around and make it an outside edge.

(This video shows my "weird" entry:   It was designed so that I do the turn before I start moving fast.  If I skate across the rink, then I freak out and can't turn.  A major stumbling block in the beginning of the 3-turn patterns!  I think moves like this, where that isn't supposed to be part of the move should get to go either way around the rink!)

Could you have done a mohawk entry?  That may have been easier.  I think that is what I did.

[Skittl1321]

That is why you have three judges on the panel.  

But you don't always.  My bronze MITF was done with 1 judge, same as my PB.  (Oddly, my PB freeskate had 3 judges, I think it only required 1)

Could you have done a mohawk entry?  That may have been easier.  I think that is what I did.

Oh god no! Those are way harder than 3-turns.  

Being an adult-start skater I am very very sided.  Even now, working on silver moves and skating a million times better than I did 3 years ago for Bronze moves I still have a lot of trouble turning with any speed in the CCW direction.  If they aren't in the silver move pattern, I can't do them.  I turn counter directional in my program, and then switch directions, for pretty much anything that requires me to turn around if I'm going CCW.

If I could have done the moves the other way around the rink I probably would have tested 6-months to a year earlier.  More than anything else, turning around to start the move was the most difficult part.  (And the first mohawk and first 3-turn of the patterns where those were actually part of the moves.)

I think now with the change to the crossovers in pre-bronze where you have to mohawk to turn around in the figure 8, rather than ending the move and starting again I wouldn't be able to pass.  Maybe if I did super slow pre-bronze crossovers, but not at the speed I skate- there is no way I could do it the direction it is written in the rulebook.

[CaraSkates]

I can say that you never know those things. When I took intermediate (first test I took when I came back) it had the power circles in it. Well, by the time I was done and stopping at the end of those, I was hitting the wall. I literally stopped from full speed inches from the wall. The judges told me there wasn't enough power and that I was toe pushing that test (I know for a fact that I don't toe push...I've never gotten that comment - ever). Pretty much every test that day failed minus some dances - that includes the pre-pre moves tests. Somedays, you just don't know what the judges are looking for.

I had this happen too - I took Intermediate MIF (the old test) crammed into a test session with four other tests (trying to pass everything before leaving for college!) and was told I wasn't powerful enough on the circles. The move that passed on that test? The brackets, which should not have, as they weren't quite ready to test. I took it 9 months later (skating about 3 months of that time) and passed WAY over - except for the brackets, which SHOULD have now passed. But, I do like that you can pass a test without passing every single move on the test - there was no way I was going to pass the rocker-choctaw pattern on Novice without another 6 months of work and they were changing the test. Luckily, my extra points on spirals, brackets and the quick 3turns made up for it

[techskater]

Thank you for sharing techskater! Could the poor kid be too nervous and forgot the pattern? (but prejuv sounds too advanced for that) If the coach taught an incomplete pattern I'd expect a conversation between judge and coach

Nope, skater didn't "forget" the pattern - the coach taught it as a 1/2 pattern.  Three skaters went out, all the same club, all the same mistake.   Judges showed skater #2 the pattern in the rulebook after calling her over.  It was very bizarre.

[icedancer]

But you don't always.  My bronze MITF was done with 1 judge, same as my PB.  (Oddly, my PB freeskate had 3 judges, I think it only required 1)
Oh god no! Those are way harder than 3-turns.  

It is really hard to be a single judge on a panel.  You have to imagine that you are yourself and two of your colleagues and try to think of how they may have judged it (this is the way I was taught, others may just see it as a one-sided thing).  Those two tests can be judged by either a single or full panel.  I always prefer judging with a full panel although on the pre-pre you can get a lot of tests done in a short time with just single panelling with a bunch of judges and a bunch of tests going on at the same time.  Of course the problem with the pre-pre test is that most of the skaters have never tested before and so don't have the protocol down.  Sometimes it is a bit difficult to corral the whole group so everyone can test at one time.

Being an adult-start skater I am very very sided.  Even now, working on silver moves and skating a million times better than I did 3 years ago for Bronze moves I still have a lot of trouble turning with any speed in the CCW direction.  If they aren't in the silver move pattern, I can't do them.  I turn counter directional in my program, and then switch directions, for pretty much anything that requires me to turn around if I'm going CCW.

If I could have done the moves the other way around the rink I probably would have tested 6-months to a year earlier.  More than anything else, turning around to start the move was the most difficult part.  (And the first mohawk and first 3-turn of the patterns where those were actually part of the moves.)

I think now with the change to the crossovers in pre-bronze where you have to mohawk to turn around in the figure 8, rather than ending the move and starting again I wouldn't be able to pass.  Maybe if I did super slow pre-bronze crossovers, but not at the speed I skate- there is no way I could do it the direction it is written in the rulebook.

I agree with the sidedness even though I am an adult skater who skated as a kid but find that as I age I get less and less able to move in both directions and cannot do much of anything with any speed.  I honestly think that in the adult tests a skater should be able to choose a side for some of the Moves - it would be more fair.  But then there are those that say that would discourage the ability to move bilaterally.  But on the other hand, when in skating do you as an adult need to be able to move in both directions?  Oh, I guess for freestyle competition to get the levels you need to be pretty bilateral.

For dance everything is set in stone and things have to be done one way and you learn that way. Period.  It's like the Blues choktaw - it is not a natural direction for me but I practiced it nonstop for MONTHS before I finally got it and was comfortable with it.  I attended a workshop for ice dancers yesterday that was given by a non ice-dancer and they would do certain moves from the dances and then follow the move with another movement NOT related to the dance and it was interesting that a lot of us couldn't do it in any other way than the way that we had learned and done over and over and over again.  It is good for elarning about skating though!

[jjane45]

Nope, skater didn't "forget" the pattern - the coach taught it as a 1/2 pattern.  Three skaters went out, all the same club, all the same mistake.   Judges showed skater #2 the pattern in the rulebook after calling her over.  It was very bizarre.

Wow bizarre indeed. Nobody ever looked up the pattern? No one at the club ever said anything watching those skaters practice??

This reminds my dispute with group lesson instructor on ISI dance step sequence after first learning it from the diagram. Apparently he forgot how to do it over years of teaching the class! Had to settle it by bringing the diagram to class.