Test Session Ethics

[Sk8Dreams]

Opinions wanted:

• Is it ethical for a Test Chair to test at a session he/she arranged and is running?
• Is it ethical for a coach to assist at a test session when his/her students are testing?

[jumpingbeansmom]

Assist in what way?

[sarahspins]

1) I don't see why not... this would be like saying someone can't compete in a competition they helped organize.  If they have little to do with the outcome (meaning, the judging is handled by someone else), I really can't see the problem.
2) I guess it depends on whether they are judging or not.. if they aren't, I don't see a conflict.

[Skittl1321]

Both sound okay to me.  Our coaches volunteer at test sessiosn all the time.  Kids act as runners for test sessions/competitions where they test/compete.   Our club's test chair doesn't skate, but I have seen many competitions where the Competition chair competed as well as ran the competition. 

I don't think someone should judge and test at the same session, but really, I'm not sure why I think that.  They wouldn't be judging themselves afterall, and tests aren't judged against how other people did, so it doesn't really matter if they judged that morning.

You could say there would be bias because they are chummy with the judges, but the skating community is small.  If "knowing" the judges were disqualification from testing, then any club volunteer or judge wouldn't be allowed to skate.

[Sk8Dreams]

Assist in what way?

Specifically, assist in anything that requires contact with the judges.  I asked this question because I often assist at test sessions, but have not had any students test at those sessions.  I expect to have a student test in the fall, and do not think it would be appropriate for me to have any relationship with the judges at that test session.  I, personally, operate under the principle of "do not give the appearance of...."  I've see people make a big stink over nothing because they believed something inappropriate was taking place, based on nothing other than what they saw from a distance.  I've also seen results that could be nothing but the result of personal contact.

[Isk8NYC]

The Test Chair testing sounds like a glutton for punishment.  Stress, time, exhaustion all double or triple when you try to perform and organize.  I don't think it's unethical, though.  Did you think there's favoritism?

The coach situation isn't an issue imo, as long as you're not judging your own students or having them judge you.

At a small rink/club, it's probably the most cost-effective solution with guest fees and all.

[Purple Sparkly]

I don't see a problem with either.  Clubs should welcome all volunteers.  I don't think it would be fair for someone to put in a lot of work and hours organizing a test session and then be told that they can't test at any test session they organize.  Clubs often need whatever help they can find and if a coach is available and willing to help out, I don't see it being a problem.  Judges are trained to remain unbiased, so, theoretically, having contact with them should not have any effect on the result.

There is a judge that knows me well enough to say hello to me when she sees me and we are "friends" on facebook.  She has also been on my panel since then and didn't seem to have a problem failing the test.

[Ellyn]

Of course a test chair who is an active skater should be able to test on test sessions she has organized.

Where else is she supposed to test if not at her club's own test sessions? Depending where the club is located, she might have to travel more than a day's drive to find a test session she didn't organize. Or should she give up her organizing duties for the whole session every time she wants to test? Who will take over?

I don't think someone should judge and test at the same session, but really, I'm not sure why I think that.  They wouldn't be judging themselves afterall, and tests aren't judged against how other people did, so it doesn't really matter if they judged that morning.

I have done this. In fact, every time I have tested since I became a judge.

My club has full-day test sessions, and I live walking distance from one of the rinks where we hold test sessions. So I plan to test at that rink, test in the morning, go home to shower and change, and come back to judge in the afternoon. In fact, my very first time officially judging instead of just trialing was also the same day that I first tested -- and was asked to retry -- my Preliminary MITF test.

There are other clubs nearby, but it's mostly the same judges, so unless I were going to travel to a distant region, or our club was going to fly in judges from afar, I would not be able to test without knowing any of the judges.

There are only limited human resources in the skating community. Most officials and volunteers are also current skaters, former skaters, or family members of skaters. There are certain obvious conflicts that need to be avoided, but it's not possible to avoid having judges sometimes judge people they know. You just want to avoid judges judging people whose outcome they have a vested interest in. Judges are supposed to recuse themselves from judging a test if they don't feel they can be impartial.

[Skittl1321]

Isi uses coaches as judges, even in events their skaters are in (though they attempt to avoid that).
The first isi competition I judged, I had to do one event in my synchro costume, because I didn't have time to change.

[twokidsskatemom]

Specifically, assist in anything that requires contact with the judges.  I asked this question because I often assist at test sessions, but have not had any students test at those sessions.  I expect to have a student test in the fall, and do not think it would be appropriate for me to have any relationship with the judges at that test session.  I, personally, operate under the principle of "do not give the appearance of...."  I've see people make a big stink over nothing because they believed something inappropriate was taking place, based on nothing other than what they saw from a distance.  I've also seen results that could be nothing but the result of personal contact.

There should be no reason why that should be an issue.I run the test session here, my kids know the judges from testing for so long,they make sure they say thank you after testing, I have some of the judges on my facebook page,  we have had parents host the judges for dinner   or host them for their overnite stays.
That said, my kids have both not passed a test, pre juv moves I think.I have a family here that overnite hosts a judge,and their daughter didnt pass senior freestyle.The judge felt bad, but she wasnt ready. They  should be able to seperate judging from friendship. Its nice to see the same judges at nationals and say hey there is judge.....

[Sk8tmum]

My daughter IS a judge and evaluator ... and an active skater who still tests ... so, you can bet that every evaluator she tests in front of is an acquaintance, and she herself is often in the officials room!

[aussieskater]

There is a judge that knows me well enough to say hello to me when she sees me and we are "friends" on facebook.  She has also been on my panel since then and didn't seem to have a problem failing the test.

  

From a "perceived bias" point of view, I don't really see a problem judging a lower level and testing a higher level at the same test session.  But I'd want to make very sure that my testing was first and judging second - spending hours sitting still in a cold cold rink would not be a good way to guarantee getting my knees moving come test time.

I'm not quite so comfortable with the idea of judging and competing at the same competition if the judging level and the competition level are close and the discipline is the same, although there's no logical reason for that - if it's good enough to double-up for testing, why not competition?  I guess it might have something to do with the fact that testing has in theory an absolute standard which (hopefully) more than one skater will meet, while in judging only one can come first.

I don't have an issue with the competing skater helping out in other ways at the competition, nor do I have an issue if a skater competes in one discipline and judges another, or competes at a high level and judges much lower ones, at the same competition.  There aren't enough volunteers to go around as it is!

[Sk8Dreams]

Well, I am clearly far more conservative in this respect than anyone else here!  I was shocked at some results recently, which is what prompted my post.  Thanks for all the replies.

[fsk8r]

 

From a "perceived bias" point of view, I don't really see a problem judging a lower level and testing a higher level at the same test session.  But I'd want to make very sure that my testing was first and judging second - spending hours sitting still in a cold cold rink would not be a good way to guarantee getting my knees moving come test time.

I'm not quite so comfortable with the idea of judging and competing at the same competition if the judging level and the competition level are close and the discipline is the same, although there's no logical reason for that - if it's good enough to double-up for testing, why not competition?  I guess it might have something to do with the fact that testing has in theory an absolute standard which (hopefully) more than one skater will meet, while in judging only one can come first.

I don't have an issue with the competing skater helping out in other ways at the competition, nor do I have an issue if a skater competes in one discipline and judges another, or competes at a high level and judges much lower ones, at the same competition.  There aren't enough volunteers to go around as it is!

I know one judge who having competed at a high level in free (before becoming a judge) is now learning the dances. He still competes the low level dances and does try to get his competition out of the way before judging. Actually respect him for going back and learning dance, although it's annoying to compete against him as the quality of his skating is just way better because he was a higher level skater who's switched disciplines. But I actually respect him more as a judge because at least he gets out there and understands the nerves of the competitors and hasn't forgotten that side of things yet.

However, I do know that there can be percieved bias when you're "friends" on facebook with a judge. I'm sure the judge would be fair, but the perception is out there.

[FigureSpins]

Sometime, it's unavoidable to mingle with the judges unless you can travel a distance. 

I skated on a synchro team with an adult skater who has her Golds in Moves and Ice Dance and is working on freeskate now.  She's a tough judge, but consistent and fair.  I think she's above reproach in terms of professionalism and very approachable when I have a question.  I like to think that I'm pretty good at juggling those eggs as well. 

She's judged my students and my DDs without incident.  In a way, she helps me with my students because she is so tough on them.  I get on their case during lessons and practices about donkey kicks/toe pushes/turnout/power/edges/point the toe/bend the knees/control the arms/yadayadayda.  When they see it in writing from someone else, it really drives home the point that I'm not being picky, I'm setting them up to succeed by addressing those issues in advance. 

However, I don't think I would test here - it's a little too close for comfort.  I liked the anonymity of testing where no one knew my name in New Jersey, lol.  For me, traveling is an option, for others, it's not.

[kssk8fan]

Everyone assists at our rink.  If you're testing (or your child is testing)....you're helping!!!!  If you're a coach, than you're expected to assist too!  The home judges assist as well!  It's all a group effort from hospitality to making copies of test sheets.  I think it works fine but we've never been to another rinks test session so I wouldn't know any different.   Sometimes our judges test during the same session that they judge.  I guess it's really no big deal! 

[MimiG]

I used to share practice ice with a judge who judged me quite frequently on my ice dances. Since there were only 5 of us on the ice most weeks, we ended up chatting quite a bit both on and off ice. But she still had no trouble failing my Argentine Tango twice (even noting on the second test that she knew I could do it in practice!)

I used to also do the timing at our club's competition, which meant I sat up with the judging panel. We didn't chat during the events, but we did chat a bit between them sometimes, and certainly did when we'd all rush off to get warm & grab a bite in the official's room when our shift was over. When I'd see them at other competitions or tests (and once in a grocery store), they'd always say hi, but I never felt I received any advantage. I certainly failed my share of tests.

I'd also have no problem with a judge testing or competing at an test or event where they are also judging.

[vesperholly]

I don't think someone should judge and test at the same session, but really, I'm not sure why I think that.

PAH ... didn't help me any! I tested my Intermediate moves at a test session where I was trial judging, and I failed.

[FigureSpins]

PAH ... didn't help me any! I tested my Intermediate moves at a test session where I was trial judging, and I failed.

To me, it's just putting too much on the plate.  I'd rather be just a skater for a test session or just a volunteer without having to worry about doing both.

I'm lucky because I have other options.  Not everyone can just up and go to another club for a test session.

[Schmeck]

Well, I am clearly far more conservative in this respect than anyone else here!  I was shocked at some results recently, which is what prompted my post.  Thanks for all the replies.

Please realize - you never get everyone to agree 100% with testing or competition results.  It's subjective, we're all human, and we all have varying views of what a skating element of any kind should look like.  So while you were 'shocked', the judges most likely saw otherwise. 

One warning - the skating community is very tight, and I hope you know not to say one peep about this at your rink.  I'd even refrain from continuing the discussion online, as you are basically accusing judges of foul play. 

[Sk8Dreams]

So while you were 'shocked', the judges most likely saw otherwise. 

Sorry, in this case, no way.  PM if you want some of the gory details.

[Schmeck]

Sorry, in this case, no way.  PM if you want some of the gory details.

No thank you - been there, done that.  If someone was passed on a test, and supposedly wasn't good enough to pass, all that happens is that skater is really going to struggle on the next test, and also not do well at competitions, as the skill level isn't there.  It doesn't hurt or help anyone else, just the actual skater that got the 'gift'.

[Skittl1321]

Sorry, in this case, no way.  PM if you want some of the gory details.

If you truly feel that something inappropriate happened, file a complaint with your club or ufsa.  But unless it actually effects you, or is one of those things that someone HAS to step up and point out wrong doing, just stay out of it.

[Sk8Dreams]

If you truly feel that something inappropriate happened, file a complaint with your club or ufsa.  But unless it actually effects you, or is one of those things that someone HAS to step up and point out wrong doing, just stay out of it.

There's no way I would file a complaint.  I really am not asking anyone what to do.  My original post was only asking for opinions.  Big difference.

[PinkLaces]

I'm a test chair and a skater.  I never took my tests at any session that I was running.  Why?  Way too hectic.  There is so much to do in getting ready and running the test session.  I know many judges in my area.  I've found that the majority of them are fair and the "tough" ones are very consistent. They know me, but I don't think that has swayed them.

I've had coaches help me on test sessions.  I don't see anything wrong with that either...as long as they are following confidentiality rules. I usually  pick up the test papers and the coaches help with herding kids, playing music, hospitality, etc. I've also had a judge take a dance test on one of my sessions and later judge moves & free style tests.  I see nothing wrong with that either.