skatingforums
On the Ice => Sitting on the Boards Rink Side => Topic started by: AgnesNitt on February 12, 2011, 08:24:29 PM
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So, I was digging around on the Hackensack website, looking for the adult skate weekend, when I clicked on their coaches bio. So here are the senior staff rates:
Sara Beth
She is a gold medalist in Freestyle and Pairs. She has competed nationally in Pairs. She skated with Holiday on Ice as a featured pair skater. She has been coaching for 27 years. Sara has coached several national competitors, as well as Olympic and World competitors.
Teaches Freestyle, Moves in the Field, and Choreography.
Member of USFS
845-548-9605
$90 per hour
Vladimir Kaprov
He has been coaching for over 40 years and has coached National and International competitors.
Teaches Freestyle and Moves in the Field
Member of USFS
201-741-0902
$100 per hour
Vakhtang Murvanidze
He is the National Champion of Georgia, as well as a 4-time World Competitor and 2-time Olympian.
Teaches Freestyle and Basic Skills
Member of USFS
240-593-1185
$90 per hour
$60 per hour for Basic 1-8
Steven Rice
Steven is a 6-time National competitor and star of Ice Capades. He is a gold medalist in Freestyle. He has been coaching for 16 years. Steve has taught students who have competed nationally and internationally. He has also taught students through their gold Freestyle and Moves in the Field tests.
National Technical Specialist for the IJS
Teaches Freestyle and Moves in the Field.
Member of USFS
908-890-1474
$92 per hour
Roman Serov
Roman is an Israeli National Champion, as well as an International and World competitor. He is a US National Coach.
Teaches Freestyle and Moves in the Field
Member of USFS and PSA
201-724-4774
$90 per hour
Robin Wagner
Robin coached the 2002 Olympic Gold Medallist Sarah Hughes. She also worked with Sasha Cohen and choreographed for several World, National, and professional competitors. She has been teaching for 13 years.
Teaches Freestyle and choreography
member of USFS and PSA
201-487-8444 ext 232
$120 per hour
Wendy Weston
She has been coaching for 10 years. She has taught skaters through Regionals, Sectionals, and Jr. Nationals.
Teaches Freestyle and Moves in the Field
Member USFS
917-880-8514
$92 per hour
Elaine Zayak
She is a former World and US Champion, 6 time US Medallist, 4 time World Medallist, and a member of the US Olympic team.
Teaches Moves in the Field and Freestyle and Choreography
Member USFS and PSA
201-218-6426
$110 per hour
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Those prices are insane.
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Frank Carroll charges a similar rate, and when I first saw it on the brochure I was like... that's it? I was probably thinking about the millions Hollywood stars make ha ha.
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Yeah, but Frank Carroll is widely recognized in the FS world.
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So, I was digging around on the Hackensack website, looking for the adult skate weekend, when I clicked on their coaches bio. So here are the senior staff rates:
<snip>
Wow. I broke out in hives just looking at those prices! I am so glad that is not the norm or my daughter would not be skating!
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$40 for a half hour lesson is not abnormal at all around here.
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The rates look pretty normal to me ... but, then again, after years of 3 kids in skating, "sticker shock" has become numbness. The only time I'm under
$75 to $85 an hour is for a rookie coach, or a dance partner; but, frankly, the ones who are charging and getting those rates (at least around here) and who have a good complement of students are able to do so because they produce results. Yes, new and less expensive coaches can be very good, but, once they get some years under their belt and are consistently producing good results, their rates go up anyways.
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There's a coach at my rink who is a halfway-retired Oly coach who charges $114 per hour. But all the other coaches are under $80 an hour, with the majority closer to $60 an hour. I can't imagine ALL the coaches costing that much :o
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I've heard that Elaine Zayak is a really good coach, as is JoJo Starbuck.
Most rinks don't post the pro's rate online. I think it would make me uncomfortable to have strangers know how much I charge for an hour lesson. I'd be afraid of someone looking to mug me after a session, thinking I'd have a lot of cash handy.
Sky Rink (Chelsea Piers) has some high-priced staff coaches as well.
Rates also vary by region. I know two similarly-rated/talented coaches in distant states. The one in NJ charges $10 / hour more than the one in NC. I should have cut my rate when I moved because it would have helped me get established as a coach faster. I didn't raise my rate when everyone else did last year, so I'm in the mid-tier where I belong.
I think it's interesting when coaches list different time rates: 5 min, 15 min, 20 min, etc. and they don't add up; ie. two 15-minute lessons cost more or less than one 30-minute lesson. It's not always that the shorter-time rate is higher; sometimes it's lower. I've always wanted to ask if it's supply-and-demand based.
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My rink doesn't even post coaches bios, much less their charges. I've had coaches ask me the prices other coaches are charging me. I'll tell them, but I don't like it. It's not 'poaching', but it just seems unprofessional.
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My rink only posted contact information. I put together bios last year, but they were only online for a day before being removed without comment. *shrugs* An astute director in NJ once told me "None of us are former olympians, we don't need bios. It'll just create infighting and accusations of resume'-padding." After seeing bios from 21-year olds that said they had 10 years of coaching experience, I now understand what she meant, lol.
I had a parent ask me about private lessons and ask my rate, which I supplied. I saw her at the desk on my way out later and stopped to say goodbye. She was checking the prices of other coaches, going down the list with the front desk clerk, lol! I quietly slunk (slanked) away. She ended up going with a high school girl for her kids instructor and, when the instructor went off to college, the kids stopped taking lessons. She had four kids, so I completely understood, but I was sad because I liked the kids a lot and they loved skating.
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My DD started taking ice dance lessons with a former British National champion. He charged us $70/hr, but that was a paycut for him. He normally got $100/hr, but our market would only bear what he was charging us. Also the cost of living is lower here than where he was teaching previously. He went back to where he came from. My DD has had several different coaches for partner lessons. They run between $65-$80/hr.
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I'm really liking my rink where all the coaches must charge the same amount regardless. We pay the front desk and hand tickets to the coaches so they can claim their pay from the rink.
It does seem unfair that the more experienced coaches can't charge more than the less experienced ones, but it means that new skaters and their parents don't make the coaching choice based on the dollars but rather on the coaching fit.
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Keep in mind that just because you pay The Rink the same for all the coaches, it doesn't mean that The Rink hands the same amount to each coach. Since the coaches are employed by the rink, the rink could have their own pay scale that isn't announced to the public. A private rink near me does that: The experienced coaches get a higher percentage of the lesson money, while the newer or lower ranked coaches get less; the rink keeps the difference as an "administration fee."
I've paid coaches anywhere between $45 and $90 an hour. While I liked the $90 coach a lot, I didn't feel that I was advanced enough to take advantage of her expertise and when she raised her rates to $96, I left.
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Most coaches in my area charge between $65 and $75 a hour. A few more accomplished coaches charge a bit more. As others here have said, it varies among different areas depending on cost of living and other factors. Anything in the NYC metro area (or L.A., San Fran, Boston.....) is going to be more expensive than average.
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I'm really liking my rink where all the coaches must charge the same amount regardless. We pay the front desk and hand tickets to the coaches so they can claim their pay from the rink.
It does seem unfair that the more experienced coaches can't charge more than the less experienced ones, but it means that new skaters and their parents don't make the coaching choice based on the dollars but rather on the coaching fit.
That's funny, but it's exactly what I hated at LV. I hated that you have to pay at reception for lessons and get tickets to give your coach. If you have only 1hr15mins to skate, you don't want to waste your time in queue on reception (because I had monthly card, I didn't need to stand there the queue to pay for ice, so why would I need to stand there to get the tickets for coach?). It is so much easier to pay the coach directly. Besides, I don't think it is the ice rinks' business how many lessons the coach teaches or how much the coach charges. As long as the coach pays the rink for using the ice...
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Besides, I don't think it is the ice rinks' business how many lessons the coach teaches or how much the coach charges. As long as the coach pays the rink for using the ice...
Well, that's the rub. The rink doesn't trust the coaches to pay their commissions or fees accurately and on a timely basis.
Some of that's justified: not all coaches track their lessons well and might forget about an extra one or two. Other coaches are just dishonest and don't care. I don't think anyone at my current rink falls into that latter category, but maybe something happened before I moved here.
Under the pay-the-coach method, a former skating director had to face off with a coach who hadn't recorded lessons or paid commissions for months. I didn't envy her having to tell the coach that he would banned if he didn't bring his accounts up to date. That's when she made it a monthly process and your group lesson checks would be withheld unless you took care of the commissions first.
My current rink has the students pay for lessons through the desk, although we set our own rates. While accepting credit cards is a nice benefit, they passed those costs along to us in the form of raised commissions. Plus, we receive our payments (less commissions) through the rink up to two weeks later, which means they get the cash float for that time frame.
I have found discrepancies in my checks several times, which take months to prove and resolve. If you don't have all the receipts/tickets, it's like looking for a needle in haystack. Oddly enough, the errors have NEVER been in my favor, lol. One time, the guy who caused the error actually told me "Y'know, you're the only one who checks these things." to which I replied "Obviously." The implication was that I should just shut up. I wonder why he's working the snack bar now?
(He had issued a credit for my lesson fee to someone's credit card who wasn't even there for skating!)
IMO, if the rink is going to collect the money, it should fast, easy and accurate.
Some of my students pay for one or multiple lessons in advance, which we both track. Others wait until mid-session or after-session to pay when the line is shorter. It just saves time and prevents the errors that seem to happen when it's crowded and noisy.
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Our coaches bill us directly and we pay them directly; there is no "cut" to the club. The skaters pay the club for ice time.
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I've never taught at a Club that charged a commission for teaching on their ice time, however fewer and fewer clubs in the US offer those sessions. Many, like mine, only rent ice for special events like shows and testing. I have to pay commission to the rink on any lessons I teach using their freestyle or public sessions.
I had some students in a competition where they had to pay for my lesson on the rink freestyle session through the front desk, but pay me directly for the lesson on the club's rented practice ice. It's confusing to keep track of, isn't it?
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I think rinks that charge fees to coaches, or that only let some coaches coach, see fewer skating students and ultimately less repeat business. Bad for business in the end.
If my geographic area is typical, the most expensive coaches charge significantly less than twice what the cheapest do. That isn't nearly as large a factor as applies to many professions, and certainly not what famous athletes and coaches can earn by endorsing products. And there are huge differences between how coaches teach, and what they teach. So if a good (for you) coach charges a little more, maybe you shouldn't be so fast to ignore him or her.
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I never got the whole charging-coaches-for-ice-time thing. I don't know if my rink does, but I doubt it, because the coaches pretty much walk in the door, put their skates on and hop on the ice. That's like charging a teacher rent for the classroom.
We do the ticket system too- the coach requires the ticket as proof of the lesson, so it's virtually impossible to cheat a coach out of their money. It's actually a rule here that you have to pay the lesson before getting the lesson (same for ice time). I have no idea if the rink takes commission out of the lesson fee.
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If you pay the rink for lessons and they pay the coach, it would be highly unlikely for them to NOT take commission. Usually the reason they do it that way is to make sure coaches are paying it.
As for only letting some coaches coach, some coaches cause more trouble than they are worth.
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*** Warning: There are a lot of generalizations following; my fellow Canadians, it's just an overview, not a perfect portrayal of our unique system ... pleae be kind ... ***
Okay, the Canadian system is different. Skate Canada skaters belong to a private club; for that privilege, we pay for ice time per session. You may generally only use the sessions you pay for (by season or annually). The qualification levels are specified, and the maximum number of skaters on the ice. The coaches are on contract to the club; only the coaches for that club, generally speaking, can step on the ice and coach on it. Coaches' contracts are renewed annually (or not, sometimes). The club may pay them for Canskate or group coaching, but, otherwise, they have no "pay" from the club. They are independent contractors, not employees.
The skaters pay for the ice time, and then they pay their coaches (by the way, how does it work if a skater in your commission system does like my guys do, working with, on some nights, 3 to 5 different coaches?????).
If you want to work with a coach from a different club - you need to obtain a membership for that club, or pay "guest fees" on that club's sessions (i.e. get permission). There is usually a maximum number of guest skates per season, as they want the club members to have the benefit of being members. Coaches do not get involved with the payment of session fees to the club; it's up to the club to manage their ice time to maximize revenues and build skaters.
On occasion, coaches change clubs and often take their skaters with them; clubs can coax and wheedle a coach to come over to their club and bring their skaters (ethically coax and wheedle, of course). Some coaches are under contract to more than one club. It depends on how much time they want to spend coaching, etc etc etc.
The clubs take care of insurance, test days, registration, all of that. Skate Canada is our only governing body. If you want to compete: you have to belong to Skate Canada, and that means that you have to belong to a club of some sort or another. If you want more oddities ... clubs like Mariposa (elite training school, Jeff Buttle etc) - you skate there, but, have a membership at your home club, which you might never step on the ice at, so that you maintain your regional affiliation for qualifying competitions ...
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I pay $90 hour to each of her 2 coaches. They were high level/olympic skaters for USSR and the satellite states when USSR came apart. We are in the suburban NYC/CT area.
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My daughter's primary coach is 50/hr and her jump coach(elite level who went to Oly) is 75/hr. The dance coach my daughter has had lessons with, is also 50/hr. Rates do vary but I think around here, what we pay the jump coach is pretty much the high end fees.
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I pay $90 hour to each of her 2 coaches. They were high level/olympic skaters for USSR and the satellite states when USSR came apart. We are in the suburban NYC/CT area.
My general area too-- everything costs alot here
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Near DC, private coach rates go from about $50/hour - $88 or $90/hour. I think about $45/hour is typical for teaching group lessons.
Why should top skating coaches be valued so much less than top football and baseball coaches, with their 7 figure salaries? Poor under-appreciated Frank Carrol and Tamara Mosvina!
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While I feel Frank Carrol is under-appreciated, it has to do with the structure of the sport. If elite figure skating coaches expect 7-figure salaries, fans will never see stars from less affluent backgrounds like Michelle Kwan or Mirai Nagasu.
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While I feel Frank Carrol is under-appreciated,
Really?
USFSA has made him the highest rated coach in the US.
The movie Rise was practically a Frank Carroll love fest. Its main arc was about his coach and her influence on skating particularly on him, then at the end, there was that long disquisition from Evan Lysacek about Frank's coaching and how he gave Frank his coach's medal from the Olympics.
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I like Frank Carroll and I always enjoy his on- and off-ice workshops. Well worth the money, imo.
There aren't many people in skating that I dislike, so don't go by me. He does have lower-level skaters - many attend the summer camps in the hopes of making it onto the elite coach's roster.
Debbie S has said in the past that PSA ratings are a way to judge coaches, yet in many areas of the country, PSA membership was forced on the coaches by new USFSA rules. Many of the coaches jsut complied with CER because they had skaters testing/competing, but they haven't really pursued ratings. That includes my former coach, who is a quadruple gold medalist and former Olympian. She didn't "need" the ratings to prove her worth. The costs of memberships, insurance, commissions and certifications add onto the expense of coaching and drive up coaches' rates. When I took lessons from her, my former coach charged $12/30 minutes. Today, she charges $45 or $50 for the same 30-minutes.
Elite skaters negotiate contracts with their coaches so compensation is handled differently than skaters taking lessons. Lysacek wouldn't be standing at a desk, buying lesson tickets weekly. There are invoices and payments, but it's handled more like a small business and the skater usually has a manager. While I'm rambling, all these expensive cars and hotel rooms may be purchased by the skater's "small business," therefore, it's not a personal expense. It's a business expense that may be written off later on taxes. [/endramble]
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Debbie S has said in the past that PSA ratings are a way to judge coaches, yet in many areas of the country, PSA membership was forced on the coaches by new USFSA rules. Many of the coaches jsut complied with CER because they had skaters testing/competing, but they haven't really pursued ratings. That includes my former coach, who is a quadruple gold medalist and former Olympian. She didn't "need" the ratings to prove her worth. The costs of memberships, insurance, commissions and certifications add onto the expense of coaching and drive up coaches' rates. When I took lessons from her, my former coach charged $12/30 minutes. Today, she charges $45 or $50 for the same 30-minutes.
ITA!!! Well said.
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How do PSA ratings work? In the UK coaches levels (ratings) are determined by NISA and there are criteria based on the numbers of skaters they've taken to Nationals and above. Other courses like field moves seminars and IJS rule changes are compulsory if you want to enter skaters for tests and competitions.
Therefore a Level 5 coach will have taken a number of skaters to Nationals and also possibly to Europeans/Worlds, whereas a level 2 coach won't have necessarily taken anyone or not yet reached the number required for promotion to level 3.
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USFSA has made him the highest rated coach in the US.
I think she meant he's under appreciated based on what his income is from coaching... compared to coaches in other sports (such as football) who DO make 7 figure salaries.
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This seems like an appropriate place to mention a particularly successful club fundraiser I executed a few years ago.
We sold bumper stickers at the rink during skating events:
"DRIVER CARRIES NO CASH: CHILD IS A FIGURE SKATER."
(And yes, even our coaches were amused!)
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This seems like an appropriate place to mention a particularly successful club fundraiser I executed a few years ago.
We sold bumper stickers at the rink during skating events:
"DRIVER CARRIES NO CASH: CHILD IS A FIGURE SKATER."
(And yes, even our coaches were amused!)
Love it!
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This seems like an appropriate place to mention a particularly successful club fundraiser I executed a few years ago.
We sold bumper stickers at the rink during skating events:
"DRIVER CARRIES NO CASH: CHILD IS A FIGURE SKATER."
(And yes, even our coaches were amused!)
may we have an adult skater version too? :D
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Elite skaters negotiate contracts with their coaches so compensation is handled differently than skaters taking lessons. Lysacek wouldn't be standing at a desk, buying lesson tickets weekly. There are invoices and payments, but it's handled more like a small business and the skater usually has a manager. While I'm rambling, all these expensive cars and hotel rooms may be purchased by the skater's "small business," therefore, it's not a personal expense. It's a business expense that may be written off later on taxes.
This is actually very interesting.
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A very good skater once told me coaches often charge their best students less per hour than they charge the general skating public. If they didn't, those coaches would be overwhelmed with prospective lower level students. They sometimes temporally drop lessons of the less competitive students just before major competitions, both to travel to the competition, and so they concentrate their time on the potential winners.
I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious I was :) joking :) about under-appreciated top coaches. If you watch televised competitions, the commentators sometimes talk about the coaches almost as much as the skaters. Who in the skating community hasn't heard of Carrol and Moskvina?
Many of those top coaches, and commentators, were top level skaters, and made good money from endorsement deals. Many probably don't need to coach or play sportscaster to pay the rent. I'm sure they see it in large part as a way to give back for the joy skating has given them.
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I don't know why some people were so shocked at those hourly rates. It's not like most skaters actually take hour-long lessons, so the cost per lesson is really 1/3 or 1/2 of that. There's a lot a good coach can do in 20-30 minutes, too. My two coaches charge $80/hour ($40 per half hour lesson) and $105/hour ($35 per 20 minute lesson) respectively. They are both Olympians, and, more importantly, good coaches.
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Split off thread drift
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Charging commission is completely unheard of in my neck of the woods, and I'd like it to stay that way!
However ... coaches are then tied more strictly to the clubs they are allowed to join. Coaches must apply to the club to be a club pro, which allows them to coach on the club's ice. It's fairly difficult to get in to a club as a coach, unless you're going to bring in a bunch of students from another club/learn to skate program, or have Senior MIF/Free (or some other politiking connection). My own club won't even hire me to teach learn to skate because I don't have any Senior tests - nevermind I've been teaching learn to skate for 15 years 88)
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While I feel Frank Carrol is under-appreciated, it has to do with the structure of the sport.
USFSA has made him the highest rated coach in the US.
Just a technicality, but Frank Carrol is the highest ranked coach in the US. Ranking and rating are two different things. Ratings are awarded based on PSA tests taken. Ranking has to do with how well a coach's students do in competition.
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Why should top skating coaches be valued so much less than top football and baseball coaches, with their 7 figure salaries? Poor under-appreciated Frank Carrol and Tamara Mosvina!
While I feel Frank Carrol is under-appreciated, it has to do with the structure of the sport. If elite figure skating coaches expect 7-figure salaries, fans will never see stars from less affluent backgrounds like Michelle Kwan or Mirai Nagasu.
I think she meant he's under appreciated based on what his income is from coaching... compared to coaches in other sports (such as football) who DO make 7 figure salaries.
Just to clarify, my "Frank Carroll is under-appreciated" comment was a direct response to Query's comment about 7-figure salaries. Exactly as sarahspins interpreted above.
It's good to know about the difference between rating and ranking though. Where can we find such rank? :D
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For those in the US that have been in the sport for a while, ratings are pretty well known. Not everyone may know what it takes to earn a particular rating, but they know they exist and that a Master rating is prestigious.
I did not know about rankings until I started getting involved in PSA. At the bottom of this (http://www.skatepsa.com/Ratings.htm) page is the information on Rankings and how one becomes eligible to receive a ranking. Note that rankings are not automatically conferred. You have to apply and pay an admnistrative fee and it is then confirmed by PSA. Personally, I don't plan to apply for a ranking unless I meet the criteria for Level III or higher.
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Well do we really know what Frank Carrol makes on a yearly basis? I doubt he's pulling in 7 figures, but the football coaches who are make that because their teams pull in so much money for the owners. And if they are not having winning seasons, they seem to let go pretty fast.
But I've heard a full time coach here in the middle of nowhere tell me he can make 6 figures in a great year (though he's been known the embellish, so who knows), but surely Frank is doing that too, being so sought after. Even if his hourly rate seems "reasonable" if he can book all his hours, then he's doing fine. Self employment taxes sure suck though.
If Figure Skating had the viewership of football, and the money earning potential, the coaches would be paid a lot more. I don't think coaches of Olympic sports tend to be paid the way professional sports do. The only amateur sport coaches who make a lot of money are for colleges, where the sports pull in TONS of money for the schools. Way more than the coaches are paid. Figure skating doesn't work that way.
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For those in the US that have been in the sport for a while, ratings are pretty well known. Not everyone may know what it takes to earn a particular rating, but they know they exist and that a Master rating is prestigious.
I did not know about rankings until I started getting involved in PSA. At the bottom of this (http://www.skatepsa.com/Ratings.htm) page is the information on Rankings and how one becomes eligible to receive a ranking. Note that rankings are not automatically conferred. You have to apply and pay an admnistrative fee and it is then confirmed by PSA. Personally, I don't plan to apply for a ranking unless I meet the criteria for Level III or higher.
I see the rankings, but where do you see which coaches HAVE these?
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Rankings and ratings are in the coaches' listings in the PSA directory. I don't know that this is available to the general public. I don't have my directory with me, but when I have nothing to do, I could go through it and see how many high level rankings there are. I might enjoy it a little, I am the girl that went through an atlas to find the highest point in each state just for fun...
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Rankings and ratings are in the coaches' listings in the PSA directory. I don't know that this is available to the general public. I don't have my directory with me, but when I have nothing to do, I could go through it and see how many high level rankings there are. I might enjoy it a little, I am the girl that went through an atlas to find the highest point in each state just for fun...
So what good is it if skaters and their parents cannot see it?
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So what good is it if skaters and their parents cannot see it?
Some coaches "advertise" their ratings/rankings on their resumes, business cards and coaching profiles. Otherwise, it's just peer recognition among coaches themselves; something to gloat about, but ratings are difficult to achieve unless you have students who are serious skaters. For a coach just starting out or someone who is only coaching low-level skaters, it's impossible for them to pursue anything above the lowest levels of ratings in any discipline other than Groups and maybe Skating Director.
The USFSA has shepherded coaches into the PSA's membership rolls, but it's artificial growth, because many coaches do not pursue ratings or rankings.
That doesn't mean that they ignore professional development, nor does it make them less professional. CER ensures that all test/competition coaches beyond Basic Skills receive continuing education each year. Many coaches attend workshops, seminars and conferences to expand their coaching knowledge. They just don't see the need to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on ratings to prove their knowledge to their peers. That's really who is judging and estimating the coach's skills through ratings.
In many parts of the country, PSA ratings/rankings mean nothing to skating directors and/or parents. They're really more concerned with the coach's demonstrated skills via their students' achievements.
The PSA Directory is not available to the general public; however, if you want to verify a coach's credentials, you can contact the PSA directly for that information.