Sharpening Discussion re: John Wilson Phoenix Blades (2020)

[Query]

I'm a bit confused.

Is the tech concerned that the heel and toe plates (that rest on the bottom of the boot) are not at right angles with the blade?

The two plates, my old MK Dance blades, weren't even coplaner, and may not even be flat - they get warped to the shape of the bottom of the boot. Unless their blade design has changed. So it makes no sense to use the heel and toe plates to set the angle across the edge, even if you ignore what Bill pointed out.

Do I completely misunderstand what is meant?

BTW, what do they mean by "datum points" in this context? Are they saying that for some reason it matters exactly where along the length of the blade the clamps are placed? Or are there marks on the blades, to make it easier to keep the rocker profile parallel to the original profile - i.e., to set the overall forward/backwards tilt of the blades?

Also, Bill, I think you are right that there could be a slight angle without problem. But of course, the wheel abrades against the steel at different rates on different poirts across of the wheel's thickness, because that speed is proportional to the diameter of the wheel at that point. Hence the two edges would end up slightly different shapes, at a microscopic level. I'm not sure if that would matter much, especially after deburring if the angle got too large.

[OldGuyDown]

I found a guy about 1 1/2 hours away that said he has done a bunch and has no problems.
He says two of his Phoenix customers are skating at a very high level & both are very sensitive to edge quality.
My feeling from talking with him is that he knows what he's doing.

I have an appointment tomorrow & will let you know.

@Query
There are no datum points on anything carbon.
The only thing you have to work with is the 5mm of stainless sticking out the bottom.
The rivets are not reliable because they are not totally flat or square.

[tstop4me]

There are no datum points on anything carbon.
The only thing you have to work with is the 5mm of stainless sticking out the bottom.
The rivets are not reliable because they are not totally flat or square.

Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct?  That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?

[Bill_S]

I'm just glad that he found someone who knows how to set the holder for his blades. That's all that really matters.

[tstop4me]

I'm just glad that he found someone who knows how to set the holder for his blades. That's all that really matters.

As far as OldGuyDown is concerned, yes that's all that really matters.  For other skaters contemplating buying the Phoenix, and for Wilson trying to roll out this new line, however, there is still a major issue if it's not readily apparent to any reasonably competent tech how to sharpen these blades properly.  According to OldGuyDown, three Wilson dealers he talked to are recommending that skaters not buy these blades for now.  Not good for the Wilson marketing guys.  Also particularly egregious given Wilson's initial announcement that design criteria included "ease of maintenance" (which I presumed to mean ease of sharpening) and "no unique jig required".  I was hoping that Wilson had learned from the mistakes that Ultima Matrix and Paramount made:  when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).

[Query]

when you design a new blade, you need to take into consideration ease of sharpening and ease of checking the edges (preferably with existing equipment; not custom gear for each line).

But these blades were advertised as being lighter than other similar blades, but were presumably still sufficiently strong and rigid. As best I understand it, one of the ways to do that is by removing the parts of the structure that take the least stress. Honeycombing the interior structure would be a lot harder to do, but a complicated side-honing pattern (i.e., uneven thicknesses) on the chassis (or whatever you want to call the structure that holds the "runner" that touches the ice), helps do that. Of course, most high end blades already have cut-out areas, which help with that too.

(I hope their spatial stress analysis for material removal takes into account various bad landings, and hitting the wall or another skater's blade.)

At one point Jackson Ultima Matrix included an "Ultralite" [sp?] model, that had more cut-out area than usual in the chassis, to save weight. For whatever reasons, they were dropped. But MK is now offering Professional Lite:

along the same lines. And they have parallel sides, and no extra chassis to get in the way of sharpening! But they only have one Lite model, and it's only suggested for jumps up to double Lutz, perhaps because the toe picks aren't as aggressive as some, or perhaps the extra cut-out area makes them less strong.

I wonder how they compare in weight to Phoenix and Revolution blades.

Likewise for the Wilson Coronation Ace Lite:

though it doesn't say whether they have parallel sides.

BTW Uneven thicknesses on the chassis wouldn't affect sharpening with the two best hand skate blade sharpening tools I know, because they both slide along the sides of the runner, using it for centering and alignment, and don't touch the "chassis". But I doubt the o.p. is willing to risk making mistakes learning to sharpen his own, on blades this expensive.

Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct?  That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?

Is that what they mean by datum points? It could be they mold the carbon fiber composite with lines that show where to place and align the blade holder. I can't see that in the pictures, but the pictures I've looked at aren't very detailed.

[OldGuyDown]

Are you saying that the communication from the Wilson rep is not correct?  That is, there are no clamping surfaces on the carbon-fiber chassis that are flat and parallel to the stainless-steel runner?

Correct, you have to get everything you need off the small amount of blade sticking out of the carbon.

Well I finally got my blades sharpened & was impressed with MY NEW skate tech.
He had measuring tools there that I've never seen before & a sharpening machine that was new to me.
The blades were sharpened on something that was not a Wassota holder.

He did say it would take longer because the factory grind was off quite a bit.
After sharpening, he showed me how he verifies that the blade has been properly ground.
I feel quite confident now that the edge can be made square on these Phoenix blades if you possess the skill to do it properly.

I got 2 hrs on the blades yesterday and I like them.

[Bill_S]

That's great to hear!

Is this the edge checker that he was using?



I'm curious because the blade is stainless vs. this magnetic gauge, and how securely it might attach to the small bit of blade sticking out.

[OldGuyDown]

Is this the edge checker that he was using?

No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI  (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.

[tstop4me]

No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI  (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.

What do you mean by "DTI"?

[tstop4me]

I'm curious because the blade is stainless vs. this magnetic gauge, and how securely it might attach to the small bit of blade sticking out.

According to Wilson, the blade is fabricated from 420 stainless.  That's a magnetic grade of stainless.  Some blade checkers use small neodymium-alloy "supermagnets" .

[Bill_S]

What do you mean by "DTI"?

tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...

http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/

It can check for uneven edges. Because it requires less blade engagement than my magnetic checker, it would be an easier solution for those blades.

[Query]

OldGuyDown, congratulations on finding someone who can sharpen your blades!

I hope you love them now.   

P.S. Wow, Bill, that Hollow Depth Indicator you linked to is $250! Not the sort of thing an average casual skater buys. Too pricey for me.

And it says it measures hollow depth, not ROH (Radius Of Hollow), so I guess it would be hard to figure out the if your edges are somewhat worn down. If I wanted that, I might be tempted to use my $20 callipers.

But the H.D.I. looks like a cool tool for the professional skate tech.

[OldGuyDown]

tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...
http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/

Yes, That's the one. DTI = Dial Test Indicator (every machine shop has about a dozen of them)

I hope you love them now.

I do like them but my coach is not happy.
She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???

[Bill_S]

...I can't quiet them down.

Ohhh, that's interesting. 

[tstop4me]

tstop - I'm assuming that it's a hollow checking indicator like this one...

http://www.pro-filer.com/hdi/

It can check for uneven edges. Because it requires less blade engagement than my magnetic checker, it would be an easier solution for those blades.

I have the Edge Specialties H.D.I. (Hollow Depth Indicator).  It's a solidly engineered, precision-machined instrument.  But performance suffers for blades with the chassis plus runner construction if the depth of the runner is too small. 

The attached picture (CLICK TO ENLARGE) shows a side view of a partially disassembled unit.  The dial indicator is attached to a slide, which slides within a clamp that clamps onto the blade.  With traditional blades, two guide pins (guide pin 1 and guide pin 2) rest on the edges of the blade to create a stable measurement platform.  The clamp holds the unit in place, but exerts light pressure.  The distance T1 between the bottom of the guide pins and the bottom edge of the clamp is 8 mm.  If the depth of the runner is less than 8 mm, the bottom edge of the clamp will hit into the chassis, and the guide pins will not seat onto the edges.  The unit is then held by clamp pressure only, and you have to exercise great care during the measurement; i.e., the unit can move, throwing off the measurement.

Another problem arises when the depth of the runner is smaller still.  The position of the dial indicator can be adjusted vertically (as viewed in the picture).  As shown, the dial indicator is positioned all the way to the bottom, flush against the slide.  The distance T2 between the dial indicator tip (fully extended) and the bottom edge of the clamp is 6 mm.  If the depth of the runner is 6 mm or less, the tip will not be depressed, and no measurement can be made. 

On my Paramount blades, a new runner has a depth of 7 mm; supplied tip works OK for now (until sharpening removes 1 mm).  I tried the H.I.D. on a new Ultima Matrix at a pro shop; didn't work with the supplied tip.  OldGuyDown reported that the Phoenix runner has a depth of 5 mm; the supplied tip won't work with that either.  The tip is replaceable, however; you can buy longer tips.

[tstop4me]

P.S. Wow, Bill, that Hollow Depth Indicator you linked to is $250! Not the sort of thing an average casual skater buys. Too pricey for me.

And it says it measures hollow depth, not ROH (Radius Of Hollow), so I guess it would be hard to figure out the if your edges are somewhat worn down. If I wanted that, I might be tempted to use my $20 callipers.

But the H.D.I. looks like a cool tool for the professional skate tech.

If you measure the depth of hollow (DOH) with the H.D.I. and the blade thickness separately with a micrometer or caliper, you can calculate the equivalent radius of hollow (ROH).

[tstop4me]

No.
He used 3 different types.
One was a small Starrett adjustable square.
The second was a side clamping tool with a DTI  (Phoenix blades are not side ground so this works)
The 3rd he called "proprietary" and looked as if it was home made.

A small square and the H.D.I. don't work all that well with the chassis plus runner blade architecture in which the runner is less than 10 mm or so deep.  If your tech is into measuring instruments, a precision machinist would use a surface gauge (though pricey for the required accuracy).  The flatbed of the sharpening machine is used as a reference surface.  The blade is clamped in the skate holder, and the skate holder is positioned on the flatbed; the skate holder can be clamped down with magnetic hold-downs if needed.  A surface gauge includes a precision ground base and an adjustable arm that holds a dial indicator at a desired height and orientation and that moves the dial indicator in a desired direction.

To check that the blade is level, the dial indicator is oriented orthogonal to the flatbed.  The tip is pressed against the flat of the test surface (e.g., side of the runner).  The tip is moved over different points of the test surface by moving the entire surface gauge.  If the test surface is parallel to the flatbed, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance). 

To check that the edges are even, the dial indicator is oriented parallel to the flatbed.  The tip is pressed against one edge, and the base of the surface gauge is clamped down onto the flatbed.  The dial indicator is then moved orthogonal to the flatbed to the opposite edge. If the edges are level, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).

[tstop4me]

BTW Uneven thicknesses on the chassis wouldn't affect sharpening with the two best hand skate blade sharpening tools I know, because they both slide along the sides of the runner, using it for centering and alignment, and don't touch the "chassis". But I doubt the o.p. is willing to risk making mistakes learning to sharpen his own, on blades this expensive.

OldGuyDown said the Phoenix runner is only 5 mm deep.  The Pro-Filer would need to be modified:  Otherwise the guide block/stone holder (which is also called a "chassis") of the Pro-Filer will hit into the chassis of the blade and the stone will not press against the hollow of the blade.  Even with modification, not sure how well it will work if the guiding surface is only 5 mm deep (and that's for a new blade).

[tstop4me]

I do like them but my coach is not happy.
She says there is no way I'll pass silver moves if I can't quiet them down.
I'm hoping it's just because they are super sharp???

One possibility (don't know for sure) is that the noise is due to the chassis plus runner construction.  The Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades also have a chassis plus runner, though they use an aluminum alloy for the chassis instead of carbon-fiber composite.  They are also noisy.  Some coaches and techs caution skaters that some judges mistake the noise for toepick scraping and knock off points (even though discerning judges should know better).

I've seen posts that attribute the noise to the stainless steel runners.  But that is not true.  I've skated on the Eclipse Aurora, which is nominally equivalent (though not identical) to the Coronation Ace.  It is fabricated from stainless steel, but constructed in the traditional manner (all parts stainless steel, with stanchions brazed to heel and sole plates).  It is quiet. 

All Paramount blades have the chassis plus runner construction.  The runners are available in plain carbon steel and stainless steel.  A coach I know actually bought one with plain carbon steel because they are significantly cheaper.  They are also noisy.

[Kaitsu]

I'm still planning on buying the Gold Seal Rev. My question was more rhetorical: how much is the weight difference really going to be between the GS Rev. and the Phoenix? 0.02 oz? I was just making the point that it would have sucked to buy GS Rev. and suddenly this FAR superior blade was released a month later, but this turned out to not be the case.

Personally I would not never-ever buy Gold Seal Revolution blades. They are pretty, that I agree but they are nearly impossible to be sharpened accurately. In traditional Gold Seals you have stanchion what can be used as a datum when evaluating if edges are even (in square). Gold Seal Revolutions are like you would try to measure ball with a square. For sure the edges can be made sharp, but getting even edges is made nearly impossible. This is much easier in Phoenix blades. Another feature what I really do like in Phoenix blades is missing chrome removal grinding.

[Kaitsu]

A small square and the H.D.I. don't work all that well with the chassis plus runner blade architecture in which the runner is less than 10 mm or so.  If your tech is into measuring instruments, a precision machinist would use a surface gauge (though pricey for the required accuracy).  The flatbed of the sharpening machine is used as a reference surface.  The blade is clamped in the skate holder, and the skate holder is positioned on the flatbed; the skate holder can be clamped down with magnetic hold-downs if needed.  A surface gauge includes a precision ground base and an adjustable arm that holds a dial indicator at a desired height and orientation and that moves the dial indicator in a desired direction.

To check that the blade is level, the dial indicator is oriented orthogonal to the flatbed.  The tip is pressed against the flat of the test surface (e.g., side of the runner).  The tip is moved over different points of the test surface by moving the entire surface gauge.  If the test surface is parallel to the flatbed, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance). 

To check that the edges are even, the dial indicator is oriented parallel to the flatbed.  The tip is pressed against one edge, and the base of the surface gauge is clamped down onto the flatbed.  The dial indicator is then moved orthogonal to the flatbed to the opposite edge. If the edges are level, the dial indicator will indicate no variation (to within a desired tolerance).

In my opinion adjustable square is more accurate than the method you described. Even this picture is taken from the Paramount and Matrix blades, same principles should work also on Phoenix blades.

[tstop4me]

In my opinion adjustable square is more accurate than the method you described. Even this picture is taken from the Paramount and Matrix blades, same principles should work also on Phoenix blades.

The square is certainly cheaper and quicker, but I wouldn't say it's more accurate.  The square is dependent on operator skill, steady hand, and good eyesight.  It's tricky to use with many blade geometries.  It also provides at best a qualitative assessment.  The surface gauge is far less dependent on operator characteristics; and, more importantly, provides a quantitative measurement (e.g., the dial indicator will directly measure whether the edges are level to within 0.001, 0.002, 0.003, .... inches). 

[Kaitsu]

I am not sure which blade geometries you are referring. If you are referring to parabolic, side honed or tapered blades, can you describe how your dial gauge method works for those blades? …or in Gold Seal Revolution which only flat area is where the toe picks are. In Paramount blades you have only narrow areas on stanchions which can be used for transversal gauging. Runner needs to be used for longitudinal gauging.

Missing flat surface is problem for both methods. With gauging method what you described, you need to obviously ensure that blade is parallel in transversal and longitudinal direction. If the blade is not 100% straight in all directions, like they hardly ever are, you may have problems to decide when blade is parallel. People often believe that blades chromed side surfaces are parallel to each other’s and super flat, but they are not.

It’s true that dial gauge gives you numerical results, but what would be the tolerable value when you already know that blade is not 100% straight and you have difficulties to choose when it is parallel to your table?
Paramount blade aluminum frames are machined and expectation is that they super straight, but runner can be still being bent as it is glued in to groove which is wider than the runner.

Note also that with dial gauge you are measuring height difference in ~4mm distance when most of the cases square can utilize much longer distance. Longer the measuring distance is, better the accuracy you can reach with square.

H.D.I gauge can grab also from the Paramount blades, but you need to extend the dial gauge shaft. For those whom think square measurement is difficult and inaccurate, I need to say that using H.D.I gauge is 10 times more difficult. H.D.I gauge what you can see in the pictures is special version, which was told to work also on side honed blades. Well, it didn’t. Or of course it depends on the accuracy requirements of the user. My H.D.I gauge is just collecting dust.

[Query]

Oh my - so more than one of you have bought the $250 H.D.I. tool, for your own personal use? Wow! Especially if it only works optimally on some blade types for a very short while, as you have indicated.

As far as using the square is concerned with vertically side honed (e.g., dovetail cut) blades, I assume that there would be a slight angle between the side of the blades and the side of the square that fits against them. E.g., for dovetail cut, there would be a small airgap as you get further from the edge, but not next to the edge itself. If you apply the square to both sides, the size of the air gap should be the same.

If your eyesight isn't good enough use a good magnifier, with little distortion - perhaps a good quality Hastings triplet - though you would have to brace the magnifier against the square and blade so the distance would be the same. If you really want to go whole hog, you could get those cool looking flip-down surgical or dental magnifiers (I've not tried them) - though the best of those cost even more than the H.D.I. tool.

How good a job does the H.D.I. tool do of measuring rocker, and how does that work?

A shame that, based on what you have said, it might not work with Phoenix blades.

I'm sorry that I just assumed that Pro-Filer could do the job. I should take a measurement on the old Berghman sharpeners, to see if 5 mm is too small. But I don't love the stones that came with the Berghmans, and they only supported 1/2" ROH. Maybe Edge Specialties could make a Pro-Filer designed just for them? At one point, they offered to make custom gap sizes for different width blades.

BTW some of the best skate techs are very proud that they figured out how to sharpen Gold Seal blades, and other vertically side honed blades, with even edges, and also managed to avoid uneven blade width as you move along the length. (It would be very easy to accidentally give them a wavy width pattern, by not taking the same depth of metal off all parts of the blade.) But those skate techs are few and far between. I have wondered whether the putative benefit of vertical side honing is real, or whether it is just an excuse to charge more for the blades. That said, some high end kitchen knives have vertical side honing too - thats what they call "hollow ground", but the hollow is in the sides, not the bottom.

Anyway, I guess we have come more or less to a consensus that the claimed ease of edge maintenance on Phoenix blades may not be altogether real, unless perhaps you have the skills and the proper equipment. I personally wouldn't want them, for that reason. I LIKE being able to sharpen my own blades - and have chosen them accordingly.