Miserable spin saga continues....

[vivic01]

Hi, I've posted earlier before about my struggles with my scratch spin and I'm kinda just looking for support and encouragement not to quit this thing already. I'm on my ...fourth to sixth month of solidly working on this element with painfully little progress.

I have two coaches- both say my entrance is excellent, my problem is really with the spinning itself.  Which is why I can not really spin (on one foot) from a standstill either.  I'm constantly leaning towards the wrong side, am too far back or forward and cant get a decent amount of rotations.

This is taking so much joy out of a sport I've been loving so much that I'm thinking of giving up on this element. However, I've been skating a year and the scratch spin is the only thing I really wanted to learn.  ;(
Any advice, words of encouragement or similar stories to share?
Anything helps!

Mod note: topic moved.

[Query]

People spend a life time working on such elements.

Don't give up!

I'm not an expert, and have a lot of trouble too. 

Moving your body as you wish to is remarkably difficult.

But I think much of the issue is simply being conscious of how the way you move affects the way your body spins. 

A coach who teaches you exactly the way you learn best is probably the best answer.

[katenka03]

For what it's worth, there's a John Wooden quote that says "Don't let what you cannot do, interfere with what you can do".  It's something I've tried to remind myself when I find myself getting really discouraged and down about a particular element and struggling to master it.  It's a simple thought, but one that really resonated with me.

Don't let one element prevent you from learning and trying other skills.  Perhaps something else that you learn will help you master the spin, or perhaps you will find other areas of your skating that bring you as much joy and satisfaction.  I'm sure there are many qualities to your skating that come effortlessly to you, but which other skaters struggle with and wish they could master.  Don't give up!

[nicklaszlo]

It should take more than a year of skating to learn scratch spin.  I've been skating for more than three and mine are still poor.  In my experience, spins take far more practice than anything else in skating.

[irenar5]

I could have written your post when I was learning the scratch spin!  I think, it has been the hardest and most frustrating move I had to learn so far (although learning the camel spin has been a saga, too).

 I have been skating for 3 years and after a year I felt like the spin was coming along.  When I watched my video, it looked like I was off the spinning axis (my free hip was lifted, so my shoulders were twisting, even though I was spinning fast in the scratch position).  This went on for another year. 
Now I feel like I have gotten a hang of it, but  I can only count on it 70% of the time. 

So, hang in there- it is a really difficult skill, even though it is the first one foot spin that is learned.  Also, don't give up if you feel like you lose a skill periodically- it comes back.  This was another thing I learned the hard way with the scratch spin.  Some days it just decides to go, but always returns. 
I also learned that if the spin is not working, the more you try it, the more you  are cementing the wrong muscle memory. The best thing is to
switch to another skill and come back to the spin.  I think my obsessive practicing of the scratch when it was clearly not working, delayed its progress.

Good luck- keep doing it - you will get it, I promise!

[sampaguita]

I am also in this stage, but my problem is the entrance. I am now back to reworking my edges, and that's what's taking my time now.

I do agree that the spinning stage is very hard -- my two-foot spins are only 3 revs long. I see kids spinning like it was so easy and I really wish I could spin like them. I tell myself that someday it will come.

On a technical note, why is it that adults have so much difficulty spinning? Kids have an easy time with this.

[blue111moon]

It took me more than 10 years to learn a decent upright spin - and then it was only because I badly sprained my landing leg ankle just before the start of summer ice.  I had already paid for the ice time and the club did not offer refunds so I had to use the ice or lose the money.  So I went and the only thing I could do was stroke and spin. 

Even now though, spins are the first thing I lose whenever I have an injury or get new boots or blades.  Some people are natural spinners.  I am not.

So unless you are spending hours and hours on just spinning, six months is nothing.

[Purple Sparkly]

On a technical note, why is it that adults have so much difficulty spinning? Kids have an easy time with this.

Kids do NOT have an easy time with this.  Learning to spin is much more difficult than learning to jump.  Good spinners are good because they like to spin and they practice them and do them over and over, even if they only get one or two revolutions at the beginning.  They are good at spinning because they like to do it, even when they aren't very good at it.

[lemongranita]

A huge amount of my spin progress eventually came after I had to have physiotherapy for an ankle injury. The physio detected that because I was very hamstring dominant, my glutes were barely engaging at all when doing one-foot balance stuff. I started doing off-ice glute specific exercises and suddenly had 8+ rev spins!

[taka]

Spins can indeed take a lot of time to "get". If you think about it you are trying to spin on a tiny bit of a particular edge of your blade. And, you need to control all the 1001 other bits of your body at the same time, not to mention not fall over! Even one thing a tiny bit off or out of place can easily throw the whole thing off! It takes a lot of practice!

I skated as a kid and can tell you definitely not all kids find spins easy, despite loving them! I had a solid backspin (in several positions!) as a kid but cannot get it at all as an adult! I've been trying to get it back for 2.5years, on and off and it is still on the wrong edge more often than not!

I have terrible body awareness and struggle to "feel" where my body parts are unless I really concentrate on them... which makes learning some things a really looooong, frustrating slog. Then again, some other things I have found relatively easy which I know friends have struggled with.

That is skating for you... if it wasn't as challenging I'm not sure it would be as much fun. I do wish some things were a bit less challenging sometimes though!

If your spin isn't working that day, try something else, and go back to it later or in your next session. Good luck and keep practicing it, you'll get there!

[icedancer]

Can you do any kind of one-foot spin? 

I don't know if they teach the "side spin" anymore - this is what I learned first as a kid after the two-foot spin.  You start with a two-foot spin and lift your non-dominant foot off the ice and place it pointing down on the calf (or lower) of your spinning foot.  This is much easier than doing a scratch spin where your free foot is extended in front of you and then you bend it, cross it and speed up the spin.

[vivic01]

hi icedancer- yes i do a "sidespin" we call it an upright one foot spin. You can begin it from a standstill or from a forward outside edge.  Both of mine are very inconsistent though and I never really get more than 3 or 4 revolutions even on a good day...

[icedancer]

I don't know if you mentioned what blade you are in - it sounds like you can't quite find that sweet spot...

How is your general skating? Edges?  Basics?

All of this has relevance to your spin as it may be a strength issue ?

[AgnesNitt]

I don't spin so I can't talk about technique.

But I've been trained by experts, and in my field (where I am an expert) I've trained others.

You may want to consider that you're overtraining on that skill.

When I have a student like that, my suggestion is to stop working on the skill, take a couple of steps back and work on something unrelated for a couple of weeks. Overtraining a skill can actually keep your body from developing new skills and a 2 week gap can give your brain time to form up the internal connections that will help you get the skill. I know this seems counter intuitive, taking a pause, but I've seen it work time and time again. Including in myself.

Secondly, I've noticed in myself, that what I consider my 'weak side' is what my coaches consider to be my 'good side'.  Maybe you could, as an experiment and with your coach observing, try spinning the other way a few times and see what happens.

The third option is that you may not be ready for the spin, and need to work on other skills for a while.

[Sk8tmum]

My DD can't spin worth a damn.  That side spin you talk about ... nightmare.  Two things ended up helping, one of which is weird but one of which makes sense:

a) wobble board.  Standing on one foot on it helped with balance.  My physio also suggested a WII-fit for something more fun to help with balance and coordination.
b) Swimming underwater.  We found that my "water baby" would make huge strides in everything related to balance in the summer when she lives in our pool; she gets in in the morning and gets out occasionally (after skating of course!). She does somersaults, swims underwater, sits on the bottom and floats up, etc.  It isn't muscle control or strength: she is a very fit and athletic (though clumsy) kid.  We finally sorted it out with our physio:  the floating in the watery medium helped her with her ability to "orient" herself in space as she had to figure out where she was without being in relation to "feet on the ground" or on the ice, i.e. bumped her body-awareness.

[Sk8Dreams]

Try off-ice spinning.  You need to do this on a smooth surface like a wood or tile floor, and try to be far away from anything that will hurt too much if you fall into it.  I use a flap from a cardboard box, which I like because I can get my weight in just the right spot and that strengthens the muscles needed on ice.  Don't worry about speed, this exercise is just for alignment and posture, which is what seems to be your problem.

[sarahspins]

Kids do NOT have an easy time with this.  Learning to spin is much more difficult than learning to jump.  Good spinners are good because they like to spin and they practice them and do them over and over, even if they only get one or two revolutions at the beginning.  They are good at spinning because they like to do it, even when they aren't very good at it.

I agree 100% with this.  Most kids are absolutely awful at spinning when they are first learning, and some really struggle with how to spin - some for a very long time.  Some kids even get "stuck" in levels because of the spins, but I think it's one of the very first things they get to learn that makes them feel like "real" skaters and it's a fun trick to show off to their friends and that can provide a powerful motivation for them that I don't think most adults get to benefit from as much. 

It really just takes time and a LOT of practice.  Good spinners don't become good spinners by chance - as purple sparkly said, they work at it.  I've been trying to get better at spinning the "other" direction for over a year and I still can only get 3-4 revolutions (which is better than the 1-2ish I'd get when I first started trying, but what I have noticed is that the entrance is much less foreign feeling now than it was, even if I still can't spin very well that way.  The main benefit though is that I can break it down for a lefthanded skater and explain it better than I could before I put the time in to learn.  3-4 revolutions is really not that bad. 

Secondly, I've noticed in myself, that what I consider my 'weak side' is what my coaches consider to be my 'good side'.  Maybe you could, as an experiment and with your coach observing, try spinning the other way a few times and see what happens.

I agree... even if trying the other side feels very strange after you've been working on one for so long, it's worth giving it a shot.  I've seen quite a few skaters struggle simply because in group classes we almost always assume everyone will spin CCW, so instructions are given for how to set up for that direction, and depending on the size of the class, the coach may not have the ones having a hard time try the other side (or even ask which hand they write with).

I also think it's perfectly reasonable to take a break from spinning for a while if you feel like you're not getting anywhere.  I know a lot of people fear doing this because they worry they might "lose" what progress they've made, but that usually isn't the case.

[slcbelle]

Ditto!  I've been skating just over a year and have just learned the spin entry (but it's ugly) and I find spinning the thing that really gets me down.  And 3 turns.  Just keep on keeping on!

[Query]

It's impossible for anyone to guess your problems without a video.

I still have trouble spinning too. But my most recent coach made some progress by pointing out that my body was too loose. If I stiffen myself up and move with resistance, I obtain much more control and repeatability. In any learning process, repeatability is a huge step in the direction of correct-ability.

Besides, if my body is too loose, I don't successfully transfer all the angular momentum from my swinging arm and leg to my torso, because much of it transfers into unstructured motions of my arm and leg. She also pointed out that bringing my arm in to make me spin faster makes my axis of rotation tilt in one direction (which also wastes angular momentum on that axis change), doing so with my leg makes me tilt in the opposite direction, or forces me to waste angular momentum on friction with the ice.  (The difference in direction is because the arm is above and the leg below my center of mass). She made me mirror the arm and leg swings together, to cancel out the tilting action. That way I spin faster and longer.

Not only was that small progress satisfying, but I love it when the physics makes sense.

But that is only me. That particular problem might not apply to you.

[momomizu]

Let's just say...I've been stuck on scratch spins for almost 2 years now with the SAME problems. -_- I just don't get it