skatingforums
On the Ice => The Pro Shop => Topic started by: Bill_S on April 12, 2019, 10:04:28 AM
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I decided to change the ROH of my skates from 3/8" to 1/2". I have been skating in 3/8" for years now, and was interested to feel the difference.
Summarizing...
1) They are decidedly faster. That immediately manifests itself as the skates feeling very "slippery" on the ice. When skating, speed is easy to achieve and to maintain in a glide. Because I was used to the higher friction of a 3/8" ROH, I felt a bit unsettled at first. It will take a few more hours of skating before they become the "new normal".
2) They require deeper knee bend. I felt a little skidding when doing sloppy edging when my knee was straighter. I sank a little more into my knees, and any trace of slipping went away. These can really grip, but require a technique appropriate for them.
3) I felt very little difference doing three-turns or a series of turning-threes.
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I love the idea of dropping my 3/8" to go for something faster. But before wasting all the metal and time, I'd like more impressions, including other people, of the all the effects...
How does it affect spinning and/or twizzles?
I don't jump much, but how would sharpness and hollow affect that?
I'm guessing you let a pro shop do it, rather than spend hours wearing out your Pro-Filer, unless you bought the coarser grit Berghman skate sharpener (which would still have taken a while). Right?
I'm trying to figure out how sharp you made it. I'm not talking about the edge angle created by the ROH - I'm talking about how ragged and rounded off the final edge is, which is at least as important to effective sharpness. So:
If the final edge was done on a pro-shop's machine, was a fine grain wheel used? Do you happen to know the grit size (e.g., 60? 120?).
Did you use the diamond dust Pro-Filer stone to create the final edge?
Do you do anything to blunt your edges - e.g., deburring, or do you merely straighten and polish the sharpening burr, to create an ultrasharp foil edge?
Did you use a steel - and what was your technique/goal with it? E.g., were you merely straightening, or trying to create an extra-sharp smoothed side micro-bevel?
You didn't happen to make a micrograph that lets us see a picture of the edge, did you? (Yeah, I know that is hard core.)
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I didn't do enough spins to get a really good feel for any changes. The edges gripped well on the entrance, but I still had issues with traveling. I don't blame the blade though. I did try some technique experiments (hold the outstretched position longer before pulling in, etc.) and they helped considerably. But I'm sure they would help with any edge.
My turning-threes are done pretty quickly. I can manage about one complete revolution each second with legs tucked. There was little difference in feel between the two hollows when doing turning threes, either direction.
I forgot to try my "snap revolutions" where I am moving forward, then tuck both arms and legs for one quick rev done in a half second, open up to stop rotation and go forward again, then repeat once or twice more. I'll report back after some more skating.
I had an unused 1/2" Pro Filer that I used to change the ROH. It didn't take long because all that's necessary is to take down the outside edges until the stone kisses the hollow. Going back to 3/8" will take much longer because you have to remove the center of the hollow. I didn't steel or side-grind the edges so I did still had a small burr all along the edge. A fingernail sliding up toward the edge could feel it, but it was a small one.
I didn't do any jumps, so no comment nor any speculations will be offered in the near future. My right knee is having issues, so I didn't jump.
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3/8" is 12/32.
1/2 is 16/32
I skate at 15/32.
Yes I can feel the difference. It's just slippery enough, and grippy enough at the same time. Breaks in inside 30 minutes, lasts just as long as any other sharpening.
Takes one helluva technician though. I wouldn't trust just anyone...especially since I'm willing to tell them what ROH is on there.
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I skate at 15/32... (snip)
Takes one (bad word)uva technician though.
On the pro shop machine I looked at in detail, an old low end Blademaster, it would not be at all hard to dress a wheel to 15/32", because ROH is an analog setting. But you might be the only customer a given skate tech has who asks for 15/32". So some techs would look at 15/32" as a waste of time and money. Also, I haven't look at all the machines - maybe some have discrete settings that don't include 15/32".
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On the pro shop machine I looked at in detail, an old low end Blademaster, it would not be at all hard to dress a wheel to 15/32", because ROH is an analog setting. But you might be the only customer a given skate tech has who asks for 15/32". So some techs would look at 15/32" as a waste of time and money. Also, I haven't look at all the machines - maybe some have discrete settings that don't include 15/32".
<<Emphasis added>> As long as the ROH can be set to 15/32", why would it take more time or cost more $ to dress the wheel to 15/32" than to some more common setting such as 3/8", 7/16", or 1/2"? Granted, the tech wouldn't have a batch of skates requested for 15/32". But not all techs operate in batch mode (some operate in a first-come-first-serve mode); and they may have to redress the wheel from skate to skate, depending on the ROH requested by sequential customers.
The real issue is what is the accuracy and reproducibility of the dresser: just because you set the dial to 15/32" doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get.
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Sometimes consecutive customers come in with the same ROH request. On top of that, many busy shops have multi-station equipment that lets them handle the most common ROH's without frequent redressing. In either case, even with for first-come-first-served service, you have to redress the wheel (or mount a different wheel) more often on average if you let people specify unusual ROH's.
Batch mode (in which you group similar ROH, similar blade thickness, and similar skate types together, which can use the same blade holding jig, and where used, the same rocker bar), is more efficient from the shop's point of view, and reduces wear and tear on the equipment. It also lets skate techs specialize - e.g., maybe only one is trained to sharpen figure skates - his or her time may get used more efficiently. Also, skate techs may not need to be there all the time.
So many shops use batch mode. Unless of course you pay extra to get rapid service. :) Some also charge extra for an unusual ROH.
But this is a bit off topic. The original poster wasn't concerned with 15/32".
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<<Emphasis added>> As long as the ROH can be set to 15/32", why would it take more time or cost more $ to dress the wheel to 15/32" than to some more common setting such as 3/8", 7/16", or 1/2"? Granted, the tech wouldn't have a batch of skates requested for 15/32". But not all techs operate in batch mode (some operate in a first-come-first-serve mode); and they may have to redress the wheel from skate to skate, depending on the ROH requested by sequential customers.
The real issue is what is the accuracy and reproducibility of the dresser: just because you set the dial to 15/32" doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get.
I have a helluva technician who is a Silver ice dancer and pairs skater. He has some weird ROH too (which I've forgotten). If I ever go to another tech i guess I'll tell him my ROH then offer to pay to redress the wheel and I can watch.
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I have a helluva technician who is a Silver ice dancer and pairs skater. He has some weird ROH too (which I've forgotten). If I ever go to another tech i guess I'll tell him my ROH then offer to pay to redress the wheel and I can watch.
You really shouldn't have to pay extra. In my experience: (a) Most shops already charge a premium for figure skates, relative to hockey skates and recreational skates; (b) I've watched several sharpeners dress a wheel. It takes less than a minute (on the order of 10's of seconds), so it doesn't take up that much time; (c) Unless you're constantly flip-flopping between extreme values of ROH (say from 3/8" to 1" and back), you don't shorten the service life of the wheel that much ... redressing the wheel from a common 7/16" or 1/2" to 15/32" and back doesn't take off much.
As I wrote above, an oddball ROH is inconvenient only for techs that operate in batch mode. In order for a tech to operate in batch mode, customers need to drop off their skates and then come back (allowing the tech to group batches of skates according to type of skate and ROH). If the tech operates either by appointment or on a first-come-first-serve basis, it makes no difference. I have come across shops with different stations for hockey and figure skates. I don't know how common it is to have different stations dedicated for different ROH's [assuming wheels that can vary the ROH via dressing, rather than wheels with fixed ROH].
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Just sticking my head in to say, I tried 15/32" last time I got a sharpening (on new skates), probably because I saw AgnesNitt mention it here. I do find a fresh 7/16" very, very grippy and difficult to stop on, and a 1/2" far too glidey, and the in between really did make all the difference. I could stop without trouble right from the start, and they still bit into the ice well enough for reasonably tight turns. I am a fan of the 15/32" ROH.
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Just sticking my head in to say, I tried 15/32" last time I got a sharpening (on new skates), probably because I saw AgnesNitt mention it here. I do find a fresh 7/16" very, very grippy and difficult to stop on, and a 1/2" far too glidey, and the in between really did make all the difference. I could stop without trouble right from the start, and they still bit into the ice well enough for reasonably tight turns. I am a fan of the 15/32" ROH.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/PcdKdLJgH6Uww/giphy.gif)
Thank you masterblaster
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That was a fun read!
For consistency, I dress my wheel before each pair of skates, even if they’re the same ROH.
I keep two wheels in circulation, one for 1/2” and greater and one for under 1/2”
He charges $10, includes a mini-bar of chocolate, and picks up and delivers boots to the rink...and I pay him by putting my $10 in an envelope under the insole.
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He charges $10, includes a mini-bar of chocolate, and picks up and delivers boots to the rink...and I pay him by putting my $10 in an envelope under the insole.
Your tech is an outlier: he does it as a side gig, rather than as a significant portion of his income stream; he's places #1 priority on doing it right, rather than maximizing throughput, minimizing expenses, or maximizing profit. Consider yourself lucky: sharpeners in my area (even the mediocre ones) typically charge $25 - $30, without any frills.
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Your tech is an outlier: he does it as a side gig, rather than as a significant portion of his income stream; he's places #1 priority on doing it right, rather than maximizing throughput, minimizing expenses, or maximizing profit. Consider yourself lucky: sharpeners in my area (even the mediocre ones) typically charge $25 - $30, without any frills.
I know I'm blessed. I'm enjoying it until I retire and take it up myself.
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Wow, the fancy figure skating pro shop up here (which does sharpenings individually, first come, first served) only charges $10. It's three bucks more than a regular sports store or a hockey rink pro shop, but they do good work as far as i can tell. I'm new to skating, but I had no idea what a deal that is.
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More impressions:
While I love, absolutely love, the glide with these, I'm becoming a bit disenchanted with some other aspects. I can do a really mean hockey turn, but this ROH is giving me some blade chatter and less control over what I had in 3/8". I use hockey turns a LOT while skating to avoid other skaters, and just to have fun. They require more concentration now to track. You have to work a bit harder when before, it was effortless.
My forward inside edge pattern also requires a bit more finesse to keep the edges from complaining. I feel a tiny bit less in control when doing deep, growly forward inside edges.
I'll keep experimenting. After all, it's just day three of this exercise.
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I had someone do my skates--highly reccommended--but he gave me blade chatter. When my regular tech showed up he looked at the blades and said the edges were uneven. One was higher than then other. They sounded like a machine gun.
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I checked the edges this morning and they look good. I even used the winding-stick method using two rulers to see if the blades were level along their length. They checked out OK.
I think that the chatter, where the blade grips, then tears out a chunk of ice, then grips again is caused by some other dynamic. I might be lightly "booting out". I see some wear on the outside edges of the soles.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/boot_bevel_2019-2-800px.jpg)
But if that's the case, I'm not sure why the 3/8" hollow would behave differently.
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I had an unused 1/2" Pro Filer that I used to change the ROH.
A diamond-dust coarse grain Pro-Filer tool, or the fine tool?
The diamond-dust tool doesn't produce much of a burr, so it may not need to be removed.
It's great that you love what you've done!
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I used both parts of the Pro Filer kit - coarse diamond first, then fine stone. The burr remaining was small and even along the length. That's a test I always do to ensure that I sharpened evenly.
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I had someone do my skates--highly reccommended--but he gave me blade chatter. When my regular tech showed up he looked at the blades and said the edges were uneven. One was higher than then other. They sounded like a machine gun.
I had this happen to me, but by my regular and trusted skate tech. I came back after an injury and when I finally got my skates sharpened, TERRIBLE chattering. I went back to him three times to get it right. The problem? Someone else had been using his gear and he kept discovering more things which weren't set the way he expected. If you have an unusual ROH, perhaps similarly something was not configured correctly to sharpen evenly.
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I had this happen to me, but by my regular and trusted skate tech. I came back after an injury and when I finally got my skates sharpened, TERRIBLE chattering. I went back to him three times to get it right. The problem? Someone else had been using his gear and he kept discovering more things which weren't set the way he expected. If you have an unusual ROH, perhaps similarly something was not configured correctly to sharpen evenly.
That's a *Very* interesting story. My ROH at the time was 1/2,so perfectly ordinary, but I could see how since it was in a hockey rink with multiple sharpeners that could happen.
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A competent sharpener should dress the wheel before sharpening each pair of skates, but many don’t bother if it’s the same hollow. The grind stone can and does change shape during the cut.
I started out on 5/8”, easy to hockey stop. As my edge control improved I went down to 1/2” then 7/16”. I feel I get better edge control and less unwanted sideways sliding. I feel I can get more push hence speed on crossovers etc. However, this has not been measured, just an impression. Initially hockey stops and backwards one foot stops were harder on the deeper hollow, the blade would chatter, but I learnt to adjust the angle. I think Bill is experiencing this, he is used to one angle, but needs to adjust it. The chatter is I think when the blade digs in too much, grips the ice, then jumps as it breaks free. The angle of the blade to the vertical is critical. When I was a beginner, a deep hollow had too much grip, and was too unforgiving.
Generally the lighter you are, the deeper the hollow, plus personal preference. But I know a very slight skater who skates brilliantly, played hockey for the GB under 18 team, but has 5/8”. I suspect he gets away with it due to superb edge control.
I now sharpen before each session, as I like fresh edges.
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I skate on 5/16" ROH. I like being able to really lean and turn hard without any fear of slipping. I started with a 1/2" ROH recommended for beginners, then tried 7/16" and loved it, then went to 5/16" after that which I've stuck with since, but all within the first few months of skating. I considered trying 1/4" but never did. I'm 5'11" and ~145lbs. My blades do make a lot of noise, especially after I changed to the more rigid Paramount blades. The blades being stainless also hold their edge a lot longer and still feel "too sharp" years after skating; I can still do one-foot stops on an inside edge without too much difficulty, but tango stops are challenging and unsure. I don't think I can do any 2-foot stops as there's too much edge. I suppose I should try going shallower, at least with these particular blades...I've felt frustrated with them and this may assist. I am curious if my perspective would be different now that I know how to skate better than when I opted to go as deep as I did.
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FWIW, I resharpened back to 3/8" in a marathon ProFiler hand-sharpening session. Changing ROH with hand-sharpeners is no fun, and I might not be done. One edge toward the spin rocker still doesn't have a burr yet. I discovered this after I thought that I was finished.
I LOVED the glide and speed I was able to get with the 1/2" hollow. Two-foot hockey stops were easy. All three-turns and brackets felt almost the same as before. However I was skidding a bit more in corners when keeping up with the hockey boys unless I made a conscious effort to bend my knees more deeply. That took a lot of concentration and leg-muscle work.
I have pretty good knee-bend, but not quite enough to corner fast and carefree in 1/2" blades. I got tired of skating with the knees of world-class ice dancers or speed skaters, so I changed back. I haven't skated in the restored 3/8" yet, but I should be able to in the next couple of days. That will tell me if the decision to return to 3/8" was a smart one or not.
I know that 3/8" feels grabby to most people, but it's what I've used for many years. I'll update this thread once I've skate on 3/8" again.
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Why not try in between around 7/16”’or so first? Though I don’t expect you’d want to do that now...
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This is a great video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rj0w0x-0yw
At first I was confused because they claim that a deeper ROH can yield faster skating, whereas you're saying you got more speed on a shallower ROH. Then I reckoned that may be because with a deeper ROH you can push a lot more into turns around the end of the rink to gain a lot of speed and so forth, but it probably takes more work to keep that speed up once gained.
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Keep in mind that speed skaters hone their blades dead-flat on the bottom. There are some videos online showing how they use jigs and flat grinding stones to hand-sharpen both blades simultaneously. Flat is essentially an infinity ROH, and we all know that those guys are fast.
Their blades are very thin compared to freestyle blades, so that's another data point.
There are a lot of variables at work.
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I’ve done a small amount of speed skating. They are low-top boots, very soft, so deep knee bend is easy as well as flexing the ankles for precise control that’s impossible in figure skates. The blade has no curve to it either, so a much longer portion is in contact with the ice at all times - probably 10 times the surface area. It’s not possible to turn on speed skates - one must step onto the other foot to change direction.
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This is a bit of an aside, relating to the speed skating topic drift.
I'm going to base most of this on conversations with Don Giese, who held several of the U.S. Masters age class ice speed records for many years, and who also ran a skate shop in Beltsville, MD, where he was my skate tech.
He and most of the speed skaters I have spoken with sharpen their skates using a technique that creates long thin foil edges on each side (essentially planar surfaces that point into the ice). (HOWEVER, not all speed skaters use that foil edge.) Most figure and hockey skate techs either don't, or create shorter foils. To some extent the foil edges compensate for the lack of hollow. Also, a typical speed skater re-sharpens with every race heat. In effect, speed skates are still very sharp, despite the lack of hollow.
Whereas the tips of the edges in hockey and figure skate blades tend to get rounded off (dulled) a little - in fact most figure and some hockey skate techs do a little of that deliberately - creating a much lower effective sharpness. A slightly dulled edge is a lot less fragile, and can take rougher treatment - though I used to prefer putting foil edges on my figure skates too.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with ROH. Other than that you can use foil edges instead of a smaller ROH to create effective sharpness. But you need to use a fine grade sharpening stone or wheel, and to center it very carefully on the blade. (If, for example, you use a Pro-Filer sharpener, and it has a little too wide a gap, it is very hard to keep it precisely centered on the blade, and it will tend to knock down the foil.) Careful sharpening produces a sideways pointing burr, which you need to carefully polish and repoint into the ice. Also, you have to be very careful of your edges - e.g., you pretty much can't take a single step off ice except in blade guards, which can be inconvenient.
(The o.p. has said he doesn't see a foil edge when he uses Pro-Filer - I'm not sure what gets in the way of that in his case. I do see and feel one - but sometimes remove some of it, especially if I don't feel like being so careful.)
I would argue that hollow on hockey and figure skate blades does two things - it creates a narrower edge angle, which does help with sharpness. But it also gives the thin layer of water on top of the ice a place and a push to move away from the edge. That means they probably don't hydroplane quite as well as a speed skate, which drops the ultimately speed. (Speed skates are also much thinner than figure and hockey blades.) But the sharper edge helps insure that the edges dig into ice more than they otherwise would. That lets you get a lot more push and acceleration.
Speed skaters don't accelerate as strongly most of the time as hockey and freestyle figure skaters - except at the start of the race, when those long foils (or the undulled right angle edges, if they don't like foils) are fully intact - during which they also use a specialized running-with-outwards-pointed-tip technique together with a huge forwards lean to push extra hard, and dig more into the ice. It's kind of fun to try it, as long as your skate session isn't too busy for the speed.
Also, while they generally have no hollow radius curvature, the blades used in short and long track speed skating do have some rocker curvature - typically 18-21', a matter of personal taste. Some elite hockey skaters, when skating on large (Olympic size) ice sheets, actually do use no rocker curvature in the center only of the blade, so they can go faster and stop faster, according to a video I once found on Blademaster's web site. Both the reduced rocker curvature and the "click skates" that short track speed skaters use (outlawed in long track speed skating) lengthen the time-of-contact with the ice, because they can roll through a longer distance and angle.
(I don't know any speed skaters who race on ponds, lakes, or canals. I don't know if they use rocker curvature.)
The side-by-side sharpening dual-blade idea produces identical rocker profiles, but I don't understand why that matters. But they all say that it does.
A few speed skaters, last I talked to them, had started playing with side honed edges. Note that there isn't much blade to side hone - speed skate blades are amazingly thin. So thin I doubt they would take the stress of freestyle figure or hockey skating.
Short and long track speed skates turn constantly, as the skater goes CCW around the oval. That's why their blades are curved to the left.
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Just to follow up again...
I skated on 3/8" in Columbus yesterday, and I prefer this ROH. I didn't have slip when doing fast cornering or with strong pushes. However glide is reduced again and it will take more muscle to keep speed going. Regardless, I like it better for all-round use.
I find it interesting that three-turns and brackets were very similar despite the ROH I had. I couldn't tell which ROH I was using when doing them. I didn't expect that.
The 3/8" ProFiler took a beating changing the ROH to a smaller one. I can tell that the coarse diamond stone isn't what it used to be. I've had this sharpening kit for a few years now, so I've received my money's worth.
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One more follow-up...
Someone here is interested in how close the Pro-Filer can get to the toe pick. While I was changing back to 3/8" from 1/2", I needed a way to tell when I had removed metal to the edges. I sometimes use a blue machinist's dye called Dykem. Oil doesn't remove it. I use oil as a sharpening lubricant.
Here's a shot of the 1/2" ROH configuration before I began to sharpen back to 3/8". It had been dyed before starting...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_change_ROH-40-800px.jpg)
After about 10 minutes with the coarse stone, the dye remaining indicated that I still hadn't reached the edges. They still had dye on them. When going to 3/8" from 1/2", there's a lot of metal to be removed from the center of the blade first.
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_change_ROH-46-800px.jpg)
I spent over half-hour on each blade until I reached this stage...
(http://www.afterness.com/skating/images/skate_blade_change_ROH-59-800px.jpg)
There's a little blue left right behind the pick, but that part will never touch the ice anyway.
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When going to 3/8" from 1/2"
Other way around... ;)
That's really close! Have you noticed that it makes any impact to how the blades feel on the ice over a typical sharpening that ends farther back? Is that tape on the side of the blade to prevent scratches?
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No, that's what I did. I had been using 1/2" and returned to 3/8". It means removing a lot of metal from the center before you reach the edges.
The tape does protect against scratches, but it's also necessary to take up some slack in the Pro-Filer's slot.
My blades have never been machine sharpened, so I don't know what it would feel like if the sharpening stopped further back.
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No, that's what I did. I had been using 1/2" and returned to 3/8". It means removing a lot of metal from the center before you reach the edges.
D’oh, I read that backwards, oops!
My blades have never been machine sharpened, so I don't know what it would feel like if the sharpening stopped further back.
Wow, that’s an impressive fact! Now I’m tempted to attempt the same feat when I get new blades... I’ll have to read up on the Pro-Filer. Anything to be aware of?
I’m still curious, have you tried 7/16” on the same blades?
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No, I haven't. The Pro-Filer company doesn't sell a true 7/16" regardless of what their advertising claims. If you want to know more, go to the end of my webpage about using the Pro-Filer - http://www.afterness.com/skating/profiler.html (http://www.afterness.com/skating/profiler.html).
The last time I was on a 7/16" ROH was in the early 2000s on my first pair of Riedell Gold Star boots. It was the last time that I had a shop mount my blades or sharpen them.
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Wow, that’s an impressive fact! Now I’m tempted to attempt the same feat when I get new blades... I’ll have to read up on the Pro-Filer. Anything to be aware of?
You don't want to use the Pro-Filer to make major changes to blade shape - you will wear it out, and will need to buy a replacement stone. If you look at the o.p.'s other thread, he pretty much did that.
Properly used, the Pro-Filer is a good tool, and is also rather pretty. But be sure to trace (or photocopy) the original rocker profile, so you can restore it if it gradually changes - as it will.
I have some quick notes on using Pro-FIler at http://mgrunes.com//boots/BootBlade.html in the section labelled "Quick and dirty instructions for sharpening figure skating blades, using hand tools".
However, not everyone agrees with everyone else on how to do things - some people here will disagree with some of what I say.