vesperholly
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Posted: 12-27-2009, 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321
and while there is "no need" to learn half loop for IJS coded scoring, there is need when your coach sticks it into a program.
Well, you always have a choice in that matter, right? There are no half loops in my programs.
daisies
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FREESK8ER
Also the " inside axel" was called a Colledge after Cecilia Colledge who did it first. Jill Trenery did a Colledge triple Salchow combo.
Just a bit of trivia.
Jill Trenary did a one-foot axel -- not an inside axel -- into a triple salchow. For a CCW jumper, an inside axel takes off the RFI edge and lands on the RBO; a one-foot axel takes off from the LFO and lands on the LBI, which is the take-off edge for a salchow.
jp1andOnly
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 02:08 AM
thats another one thats my fav. The lutz is fairly straightforward. Actually many reasons why people flutz is the edge heading right towards the corner. Make is almost go across ice and it is way easier. Dont ask me about the toe loop. As a kid I learned the 3 turn-waltz jump so I will probably never ever get a double toe consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isk8NYC
I always felt that coordination led to a better Lutz jump for some reason. I think it's the way you have to "force" yourself to turn against the natural rotation.
RachelSk8er
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 08:43 AM
I learned a loop long before I learned a half loop, because when I was a kid I don't think anyone really used half loops in programs to link jumps like they do now, it was mostly used in footwork (the first time I remember doing one was in an ice show group number in college and I didn't even know it was a half loop back then, it was just part of the choreography). As other people have mentioned, it is a tricky, pesky jump that's actually a full rotation. I use half loops in footwork or to link jumps together in sequences because by putting me on the L foot, it allows me to use salchows (my program has a lutz/half loop/salchow/toe loop for the jump sequence, that's the only sal in my program). I also have one into my flip just as a difficult entry (there the half loop functions much like a wally and just makes the entry harder but doesn't turn a solo jump into a combo because it's not a recognized jump). I actually don't even think of it as a loop though, because if I think loop I land on my right foot. To trick my brain, I really think more of just jumping, rotating and landing on my left foot. You really need a nice, solid landing edge in order to use them to link some jumps, especially if you're going to pick in for a flip.
I've also used one footed salchows (take off and land on a LBI edge) to link jumps together, they're awkward but very few people ever do them. I had one in my bronze program a few years ago, but I get much better height on a half loop so I usually stick to that. And when I got off the ice afer competing, I swear at least 5 people told me I landed a salchow on the wrong foot, thinking it was a mistake that I covered up by doing another sal after. Well, yeah, that was intentional.
I've also played around with Wallys (very, very little) but my body/brain don't quite connect on them. I end up cranking the edge to an outside edge right before taking off, and that's just a really poorly executed loop jump. I really would love to be able to do a left handed wally (take off on LBI edge/land on LBO edge) into a (right handed) lutz, but that's much easier said than done! Maybe now that I'm working on double toes/double toe wallys, I'll be able to get the concept of doing one rotation without the toepick.
Skittl1321
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vesperholly
Well, you always have a choice in that matter, right? There are no half loops in my programs.
Sure, I suppose I have a choice to refuse to do it, but she also has the choice to stop coaching me.
FREESK8ER
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Post Title: Oops
Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daisies
Jill Trenary did a one-foot axel -- not an inside axel -- into a triple salchow. For a CCW jumper, an inside axel takes off the RFI edge and lands on the RBO; a one-foot axel takes off from the LFO and lands on the LBI, which is the take-off edge for a salchow.
Your right, it is called a one foot axel but wouldn't it be easier to call it a Colledge? I guess they call it a 1 foot axel because you land on the same skate you take off on.
The LFI edge take off, landing on a LBO edge is called a Boeckle after some guy named Boeckle. I really need to get out the history book and get all these names correct.
vesperholly
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321
Sure, I suppose I have a choice to refuse to do it, but she also has the choice to stop coaching me.
Um ... wow. Maybe I'm just not experienced in other ways, but my coach-student relationship is and has always been very collaborative, with all the coaches I've taken lessons from.
Skittl1321
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vesperholly
Um ... wow. Maybe I'm just not experienced in other ways, but my coach-student relationship is and has always been very collaborative, with all the coaches I've taken lessons from.
Mine is very much collaborative. (I pick my own music for example, and am shocked by other threads where it is apparently the norm for a coach to decide what music would be.)
However, she has skills she wants me to learn. I don't get to pick that. I can tell her I can't jump TODAY for my hips, or I can't do sit spins due to my knees, but I don't get to eliminate the elements all together. Heck, I could even say "no freestyle for the next 3 months"- but if we are doing freestyle, she determines which elements we do. And things she notices I've very unlikely to practice on my own end up being thrown into programs.
She's never threatened to stop coaching me, but I've never met a coach who will put up with a student who wants to run the show. I'm sure I test her limits enough with my over thinking. Refusing to do skills without a good reason wouldn't be a good thing.
daisies
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321
I've never met a coach who will put up with a student who wants to run the show.
Perfect example of "YMMV." As an adult, I've never let my coaches run the show. I pay them, not vice-versa! If they tell me to do something, I'll usually try it, but if I don't like it, I say so, stop doing it and move on to something else. My money and time are too valuable to work on something that makes me miserable and/or has the potential to mess up either my body or my timing on other skating elements!
But I do understand it's different if you are just learning the basics, because basics are necessary building blocks. However, I agree with others that a half-loop isn't a building block the way other half jumps are; it's quite difficult and could mess up the timing of your single loop.
YMMV!
2salch0w
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Post Title: two things
Posted: 12-28-2009, 05:46 PM
Two things about 1/2 loops:
1. In IJS, using 1/2 loops to create a sequence will actually lose you points. Unless they recently changed it, a sequence of jumps gets a .8 factor. So as difficult as it is to connect a triple toe loop to a triple salchow with a half loop, you lose a bunch of points for doing it. You'd be better off doing 3 sal / 3toe, which is much easier, but worth more.
My former coach wanted me to do flip / half loop / flip. I could kinda squeak one out, but it was really hard and probably wouldn't get me much. I also find the 1/2 loop in competition can be a disaster, since it is such a finesse jump. If the nerves are getting to you, or the adrenaline is too high, it is hard to control. Just not worth it.
2. Regarding using a half loop to learn a full loop, I agree with previous posters that there is no connection between the two. However, I sometimes teach a version of the half loop that has you landing forward on your usual landing foot. So for CCW: back RO take off, 1/2 turn in the air, land fwd on right toe pick with left foot crossed in front in proper backspin position, step out to left fwd outside edge. This will give you the feeling of taking off on your right side, then staying there and getting your free leg in the right spot.
I also recommend this same technique for 1/2 flip and 1/2 lutz, rather than switch to the other foot in the air, which teaches nothing.
Tim
sk8lady
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 07:34 PM
I learned the half-loop first, partly because my loop was not real consistent and I needed the encouragement boost I got from learning a new jump that I could do consistently. I did the half-loop from a back crossover entry and the loop from a forward 3 entry.
When I took my bronze free test, I included both jumps separately in my program because I was worried about landing the loop. I did actually seize up, fail to land the loop, and landed a great half-loop. Two of three judges passed me and had no trouble counting the half-loop as a full rotation jump.
I can do both jumps from the back crossover entry now and my coach is working me on jump combinations that include the half-loop. I've found it a handy jump to have.
Skate@Delaware
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 09:05 PM
I have had "issues" with my loop since un-doing the half-loop. I have a hard time rolling off/on my toepick. My coach has me going into it now from an inside 3-turn and ta-da, that seems to do the trick (weird, cause when I do the old way, I land it flat-footed again....((sigh)). Oh well.
vesperholly
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daisies
But I do understand it's different if you are just learning the basics, because basics are necessary building blocks.
Thank you, you said it way better than I could! Coaching approaches are definitely different for skaters working on preliminary freestyle vs. senior moves.
RachelSk8er
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Posted: 12-31-2009, 08:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2salch0w
Two things about 1/2 loops:
1. In IJS, using 1/2 loops to create a sequence will actually lose you points. Unless they recently changed it, a sequence of jumps gets a .8 factor. So as difficult as it is to connect a triple toe loop to a triple salchow with a half loop, you lose a bunch of points for doing it. You'd be better off doing 3 sal / 3toe, which is much easier, but worth more.
But they do come in handy to create additional sequences when you've already "used" all of a particular jump in your program. If you've already used both of your loops and both of your toes, there isn't much else to put as a second jump in a combo without using a half loop to link a salchow. That's where I end up using them in my program (granted it's under 6.0 and once I have a consistent axel in my program it will free up a loop jump to use in my sequence instead).
And it can boost your PCS scores (hopefully), or at the very least just make you look cool if you use it before a solo flip to give it a difficult entry.
doubletoe
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Posted: 01-01-2010, 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RachelSk8er
But they do come in handy to create additional sequences when you've already "used" all of a particular jump in your program. If you've already used both of your loops and both of your toes, there isn't much else to put as a second jump in a combo without using a half loop to link a salchow. That's where I end up using them in my program (granted it's under 6.0 and once I have a consistent axel in my program it will free up a loop jump to use in my sequence instead).
And it can boost your PCS scores (hopefully), or at the very least just make you look cool if you use it before a solo flip to give it a difficult entry.
Yes, you will see a few high level skaters using the half loop to create a sequence if they have strong triple salchows (like Joannie Rochette). Even at just 80% of the value, a triple jump-half loop-triple salchow can net more points than triple jump+double toe.