Which blades could help me with jump height?

[masterblaster]

I'm a beginner adult, skating for three years, group lessons for two years. I am just about finished with LTS levels and expect I will be starting single jumps in the near future. I have Edea Chorus boots with Ultima Legacy 8 blades (because the beginner Mirage blades made learning even basic two foot turns and spins nearly impossible for me. Legacy helped. I stayed in 8' for stability as a beginner, and speed as an adrenaline junkie.)

MY QUESTION: I have long, wide, flat feet that are pretty stiff and inflexible. My big toes are particularly stiff and immobile (assessed in PT.) I've noticed that vaulting off the toe pick, especially on a forward one-foot take off, requires good toe flexion and while I can do it somewhat, I don't get hardly any height on my bunny hop, even when I'm not scared and pushing off HARD. I get decent height on a backward two foot hop, but that's probably because I have double power on a two foot takeoff.

i'm also heavy, 250 lbs, so obviously it takes more strength to get myself into the air, and I'd love a blade that can provide maximal assistance. My Legacy 8s are near the end of their sharpening life and the profile is noticeably flatter than when they were new, which is not helping.

What specific blade features would help me the most with vaulting off the pick and getting more height as I get into jumps? I suspect a blade with a more pronounced spin rocker plus a big toepick may give me the best momentum to get me into the air, thus partially compensating for my stiff toes and heavy mass, but is this correct?

And would a 7' vs. my current 8' overall blade rocker help at all? I'm nervous about stability on landings since I'm 43 lol and trying to prevent injury.

I'd love to hear some blade specs and suggestions if you have any.

Bonus question: would a Concerto boot be a better option as I get into single jumps, given my weight? Landing on one ankle makes me feel nervous in my Choruses, though they are not broken down yet.

[Query]

I'm not a good jumper, and I'm not in the same weight class. But bunny hops work better if I can get a fair amount of forward speed before the jump, and if I let the free leg swing fairly fast and long through the air, so its momentum is a lot of what carries me into the air. In affect, I am transferring momentum from the leg to the rest of the body. Requires a degree of commitment.

AFAICT, in decent well fit boots, the toes hardly bend at all, so I'm not sure inflexible toes matter much - though I admit some of the skaters on this forum say the tips of their toes touches the front of their boots, a little bit like a ballet pointe shoe (I think - I've never done ballet).

A podiatrist told me that my limited toe flexibility was because of metatarsal bone spurs, a form of osteoarthritis, that can occur if the metatarsals rub against each other as they bend. (Similar spurs sometimes occur on the toes.) Skate boots are a lot like the diabetic shoes and inserts that are designed to reduce forefoot bending, and to support the foot. The rigidity of the blade mounting plate make that even more true. Maybe the better skaters will disagree, but if your toes are curling as you jump, maybe you need stiffer boots - and boots that fit your feet more snugly. I claim there shouldn't be enough space for you to bend your toes forwards or back, though others might disagree. However, the podiatrist told me that my shoes and boots shouldn't be too snug around the sides of the toes. Perhaps because the squishing together of the toes can make osteoarthritis worse.

Incidentally, the podiatrist gave me toe stretching exercises, which have helped a bit with toe flexibility.

Note: there are other osteoarthritis and diabetic shoes and inserts that have flexible forefoots. I guess it depends on the exact diagnosis. My exact foot problems might not be your exact foot problems. Maybe it makes sense for you to see a podiatrist - preferably a sports podiatrist, and get x-rays ordered if the podiatrist says so - to see what should be done about your boots.

A little bit of snugness can be obtained by modifying your insoles. That can be as simple as putting cloth first aid tape under the parts of your insole where you have reduced pressure under your foot.  And if the sides of the boot are pressing inwards significantly on your toes, you can have them stretched (punched) out at those points. But see a podiatrist too.

[masterblaster]

Thanks, Query. I don't think my toes are curling in my boots when I hop, but I do suspect I could use a wider boot. Maybe I'm overestimating the role toe flexion plays in jumps, since you're right that the boots and sole plate of the blade are so stiff that it prevents much movement.

Have you noticed whether any particular blades have helped your jumps and bunny hops?

[Loops]

In my experience, equipment, assuming its good, properly fit and level appropriate, is less important than training.  You'll get height and power with on-ice practice eventually.  You need to build up muscle and muscle memory, plus confidence in your body.  That, as I'm sure you know, takes time.  If you want to spend money to help with your skating, I'd consider investing it in augmenting (or establishing) an off-ice training practice.  There you'll build strength and stability faster than just with on -ice practice. Ask the coaches at your rink if there's a local gym or trainer where the skaters tend to go.  They'll be a good resource for you.  If there's nothing and you're good at doing things solo, then Sk8strong is an excellent resource.

I don't know what top end blades are going for these days, but whatever the price, they won't be magic. You'll get more putting the money into a personal trainer and ice-time, imho.

Boots are another matter- talk to your fitter and your coach about those.

Sounds like you're off to a great start and having fun- thats a big part of it!  keep up the enjoyment.

[masterblaster]

I'm sure you're correct that training and practice will make the biggest difference.

I don't want to buy an advanced blade, but I'm going to need a new intermediate blade in the near future anyway just due to wearing my old one out, so I thought I should try to pick a blade whose specs might work best with my feet, but it seems there are no clear answers on that.

[supersharp]

Good advice from Loops.  Training is such a good investment. And I agree with the other posters that toe stiffness is probably not a big component at this point, and may never really be an issue, depending on how much jumping you do. 

I'm wondering about your boot fit--if you think your boots might not be wide enough, fixing that will be more important that finding the perfect blade.  It's hard to use your foot properly if it can't make full relaxed contact across the whole insole.  That will help with every single thing you try on your skates.

Pull the insole out of your current boots and stand on it, and observe whether it is basically the same width as your foot or if there is a lot of foot hanging over one or both sides of the insole.  If so, you need a wider boot.  Most manufacturers also have a foot circumference measure that helps guide you to the correct boot width, although in my experience, you can't really tell until you try a skate on.  The support the sides of the boot gives to the insole changes the feel and fit of it, but it's a good starting point.

The Legacy 7 blade has more shape to both the front and the main radius than the Legacy 8.  You might find that you prefer that, particularly if you had trouble with the Matrix not having enough shape.


As far as going up a level in the boots--if the current model seems a little sketchy, it's probably not a bad idea to go up a level in stiffness.  This would be a good discussion to have with your coach and skate tech.  Also remember that Edea recommends replacing your laces regularly (I think every 6 months?) to help support the tongue. 

Good luck, it sounds like you are off to a great start. 

[masterblaster]

Thanks supersharp, I'll pull out my insoles and double check my boot width.

I did think the Legacy 7 might be a good way to transition to a 7' blade without being too radically different from my current blade, so thanks for mentioning that. I've also been told that a Coronation Ace would be a good choice, but that seems pretty true across the board. Just have to decide how much of a change my brain and feet want to deal with.

This blade is getting flatter by the day and it's obvious every time I skate. I'm getting those little spoony marks on my three turn tracings from the drag pick, and it's really annoying. I even scrape skating backward. Any new, actually rounded blade would feel AMAZING at this point.

[Kaitsu]

Why dont you grind a bit your blades drag pick to restore heel lift?

Like you said, frontal profile is getting more and more straight in every sharpening, but in same time your heel lift is getting lower and lower. Its not uncommon  to see 15mm heel lifts in Ultimas blades even they are new. That is already like in wornout Coronation Ace. You can probabaly achieve 1-2 mm heel lift increase without changing too much your drag picks.

[Loops]

I misunderstood your concern re: blades.  If it's blade time, it's blade time, and you're getting some good advice on here.  I personally love my Coronation Aces.  I've only skated in them and Professionals.  I loved my professionals too (I switched because I do only dance now, and am a fan of the dance length blade).

I do see a lot of people who subscribe to the belief that one can not overblade.  Fair enough, but those suckers are expensive and my own opinion is that money is better spent on training than features that at least in my case, I do not have the skill set to exploit.

My skate tech loves the Ultima blades. The quality control coming out of Ultima is far better than out of MK/JW (he'd been in the business for decades and saw his share of warped blades).

Good luck!

[masterblaster]

Thanks, Kaitsu, I might ask them to do that at my next sharpening.

Loops, did you notice any difference between the Aces and Pros? I know they are supposed ti be very similar but have documented differences in spin rocker and heel stanchion height, and I'd just love to know how those minor differences translate on the ice.

[Query]

One thing that helps me with bunny hops, is that I learned to fall gently. I am now completely unafraid of falling on the ice in any direction from roughly standing height. So I'm not afraid to commit to the jump. I can go as far as I can onto the toe pick, and use the leg swing to pull myself high into the air, without fear. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I was still afraid of falling. Of course, if you are taking group lessons, the extent to which your coach will show you how to fall gently depends on the coach. Most spend very little time on falling.

As others have indicated, while there might be a time when the blades limit you, at your level, you are much more likely to be skill, practice and fear limited. More practice time, on uncrowded ice if you can get it, and more instruction, are a better investment. But if there is a problem with your boots - if you aren't in them snugly enough, or they don't support your ankles, that could create an injury. Especially if you don't fall right, or if you fight a fall too hard.

If I were you I wouldn't go to the top end freestyle blades, even if you can afford them. Because it takes time to get over that super-aggressive toe pick, if you ever do. The chances are, if you aren't getting very far off the ice in your bunny hop (though, BTW, a lot of people don't get very far off the ice in bunny hops, and you probably don't need to get very high to "pass"), you are probably still a bit timid about using the toe pick and the leg swing. A super-aggressive toepick would just make that harder, because you will sometimes jam into the toe pick before you are ready to jump.

[Loops]

Thanks, Kaitsu, I might ask them to do that at my next sharpening.

Loops, did you notice any difference between the Aces and Pros? I know they are supposed ti be very similar but have documented differences in spin rocker and heel stanchion height, and I'd just love to know how those minor differences translate on the ice.

To be completely honest, no.  But my Pros were so flat by the time I changed them that I'd had the drag pick shaved down while I went through the skate buying process.  ANY blade, even a new Professional would have been radically different.

[masterblaster]

Thanks Query - I've become a lot less fearful of falling over time, but the bunny hop was still intimidating to me for all the reasons you mention until even more recently. Now I'm doing it consistently, and I am lucky to have lots of uncrowded ice time (thanks to being self employed and living in Canada) but you're right, there is STILL fear. I think falling forward is still something I need to find a way to do more gently. Would you suggest to practice falling every time I skate?

Thanks for sharing your experience with the blades, loops. I think I'm going to have to take a leap of faith and just get whichever new ones I can that are at the right level.

[supersharp]

You might want to look at the different profiles that Bill_S measured on a variety of blades, it is a treasure trove of information:

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?action=post;quote=101218;topic=8464.50;last_msg=105275

I plotted graphs of the Ace vs the Pro, which confirmed my experience that the Pro has more curvature to it.  After being on a very flat blade, you might find the profile of the Ace easier to live with--and the Legacy 7 has basically the same profile as the Ace.  If you get a Legacy 7, there is a good chance the mounting holes will line up with your existing mounting holes, which is always a bonus for preserving boot life. 

Generally speaking, I see less problems with chrome relief grinding damage on the Ultima blades when compared to the Wilson blades.  Not perfect, but far fewer bad spots and when they exist, they tend to be at the end of the tail where they will make far less difference than at the front on the spin rocker.

[Query]

Thanks Query - I've become a lot less fearful of falling over time, but the bunny hop was still intimidating to me for all the reasons you mention until even more recently. Now I'm doing it consistently, and I am lucky to have lots of uncrowded ice time (thanks to being self employed and living in Canada) but you're right, there is STILL fear. I think falling forward is still something I need to find a way to do more gently. Would you suggest to practice falling every time I skate?

Basically, start from a kneeling position, so the impact won't be hard enough to do harm, and gradually work your way up to a standing pose.

You need to relax - when your body is tense, things break or rip easily.

My technique is to place my relaxed hands or arms forwards (not directly underneath me, to reduce the shock) on the ice, and let them glide forward. You should start that glide a little before the hands and arms contact the ice. But I suggest wearing gloves and long sleeve shirts or jacket all the time - because you can scratch yourself on a groove in the ice. It also makes it a little more gentle. Also, don't let your first points of contact be your bone (elbows or knees) - try to make all first contacts on soft body tissue. (Also - a gliding fall is great on slippery ice, but not great on some rough surfaces.)

The biggest things with falling, as with almost anything, is practice. In the case of falling, you don't really have time to think much about what you are doing - it has to be practiced enough to be instinctive.

If you do scratch yourself, be sure to wash the scratch, so you don't dirt inside your body, get infected.

I have a rather lengthy web page on this sort of thing at http://mgrunes.com/falling.html

I also stress there that there are ways of regaining balance that don't create the extreme excess tension that causes a lot of injuries. They are worth practicing too.

Maybe I should make some videos.

Of course there are people who disagree with me on many things.

[Kaitsu]

What comes to the blades profiles visual comparison, one good web pages is https://scarletskater.wordpress.com/2017/06/01/choosing-figure-skating-blades/

Just don´t believe blindly what they say about the side honed blades bite angle. From the Ultimas blades you can find side surfaces machining which affects to the bite angle, but in Wilson blades concave shape is not going up to the edges what you use for skating. I think I have never seen side honed blade which would look same as in their sketch.

[Query]

That is a great page, that explains a lot of things about blades, and the reasons for their shapes. I also love her linked page

  https://scarletskater.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/blade-profiles/

I'd seen her main web page before, but didn't find the sub-page you noticed.

Of course, different skaters, coaches and manufacturers may use slightly different terminology (e.g., the "sweet spot" definition) and might disagree slightly on some things - but that's to be expected of any sports equipment.

Interesting that Scarlet Skater only recommends MK and JW blades.

She does not show profiles for Ultima blades. By her theories, since most of the Ultima blades have a substantially different spin rocker radius, perhaps they would work better for people with different length toes??

Incidentally, she says

One extra thing to note is the curvature of the blade is NOT consistent when buying new blades because HD Sports (John Wilson; MK) hand sharpen the blade (hand sharpening is done using a manual machine, and not a computer controlled or automatic).

Yet she advises

Have your blades sharpened by a professional who uses an automatic machine, designed for figure blades (to produce more accurate and precise results).

The only "automatic" machines I am aware of that control the rocker shape like that are primarily for hockey skates, like the CAG computer controlled machines (though they do have figure skate settings) - but those CAG machines are cross-cut machines that are generally only used to create the profile, and a skate tech told me they didn't produce a very good edge - so he used another machine to do the sharpening after using the CAG machine to do profiling. So I'm not sure what she means.

Despite these minor nitpicks, I think it is one of the best pages on blade shape I have seen. Great find, Kaitsu!

[masterblaster]

Super helpful, thanks for that link.

[nicklaszlo]

If you want to jump well, I would recommend:

• Spend more time on whatever your physical therapist recommends
• A dietician
• 5 hours per week of exercise that increases your heart rate.
• Practice jumping

In my personal experience, following a dietician's advice very rigorously caused me to gain a large amount of muscle. 

Learn to skate classes or practicing the skills in learn to skate classes does not count towards exercise that increases your heart rate.  When you get to the adult silver moves in the field test, that will count.

You can practice jumping off ice as well as on ice.  I believe jumping on ice has a much lower risk of overuse injuries. 

[masterblaster]

uh thanks I guess, but I am a dietitian myself and this question was about blades and equipment

[AlbaNY]

I'm sure you're correct that training and practice will make the biggest difference.

I don't want to buy an advanced blade, but I'm going to need a new intermediate blade in the near future anyway just due to wearing my old one out, so I thought I should try to pick a blade whose specs might work best with my feet, but it seems there are no clear answers on that.

I'd say you want something with as aggressive a toe pick as possible in the price range you are comfortable with and to keep in mind the spin rocker that you want.  When I switched from Aspire XPs to Pattern 99 the change in toe pick was lovely.  I had chosen the Aspires partly for the cross cut pics and felt happy with them, but the giant 99 pick is fantastic.  I'm not sure about mid level blades that would be comparable in pick though let alone the spin rocker aspect. 
You wouldn't believe the holes I leave in the ice lutzing.  I spent quite a while on it a couple weeks ago and had to resurface the ice personally the rest of the day, and it took six runs of the Zamboni to even come close to filling the lunar surface I left.   

Maybe the Paramount C9?
I tried Phantoms quite briefly and think that might be a nice solution for you or the Paramount version except those are still very expensive apparently.     Phantoms have the spin rocker and 7' thing going on but aggressive picks, which is why I bring it up although it is evidently a higher level blade. 

I see that people are talking about the big toe pick getting in the way if you are lower level, but that was not my experience at all, and personally I think one adapts to whatever equipment they have?  I can't even figure out how I could accidentally hit the pick actually?
Take my advice with the grain of salt that I overbooted myself to the stiffest Harlick boot possible at just adult 1-3 level and debatably am over bladed now at Freestyle 5 or hopefully 6 with the 99s.   

My first coach recently switched from always using Pattern 99s to the cheaper Coronation Aces since he doesn't "jump triples anymore... they're fine."  He seems to have the opinion those are the blade for pretty much anyone not in rentals that doesn't require 99s.  (He also seems almost annoyed that I have 99s actually.)

[supersharp]

Overall, I’m in agreement with nicklaszlo…focus on technique and training.

Whatever you consider for new blades—before purchasing, make sure your skate tech can sharpen the blade you are thinking of getting. For example, I can sharpen any classic blade and Paramount and Matrix, but I can’t fit the Revolution blade in my clamping system.  One of the skaters that moved here a few years ago had Revolution blades and eventually replaced them with the non-Revolution version because the advantages of the Rev were not enough to offset the disadvantages of having to get them sharpened with a coarse stone at the rink.

I also encourage you to look for a blade that has parallel sides—they are so much easier to sharpen with consistently level edges, which will provide a real benefit to your learning.  Side-honing is overrated and will not provide any real benefits for you at this stage. Parabolic blades will also add no real benefit. Both of these topics are discussed in detail elsewhere in this forum.

[masterblaster]

Thank you both, that adds some helpful detail. I'd love to try a Phantom but that's too fancy for me right now, so I'll probably end up with a Coronation Ace or similar. I'll definitely avoid any extra special features like revs or side honing. I live near a good figure skating shop with a tech who sharpens for pros, but there's no real reason for me to have that stuff unless I become seriously advanced in the future (not likely since I never skated until I was almost 40.)

I'd love to be able to just try and swap out blades so I could compare the feel between a Coro Ace and MK Pro on my foot, but that's every skater's impossible dream I think

[AlbaNY]

I'd love to be able to just try and swap out blades so I could compare the feel between a Coro Ace and MK Pro on my foot, but that's every skater's impossible dream I think

Wouldn't that be fantastic?
If I hit the lottery I'd open some kind of blade lending library for this reason besides building a dream rink.   

I see plenty of good comments around the internet about Coronation Ace, so you'll probably be happy with those.

[Query]

I'd love to be able to just try and swap out blades so I could compare the feel between a Coro Ace and MK Pro on my foot, but that's every skater's impossible dream I think

There have been a number of rapid blade runner interchange systems over the years. But as far as I know, JW and MK, who make the JW Coronation Ace and the MK Pro (they are no the same company, HD Sports, possibly even made on the same production line), have never done that.

Even without an interchangeable blade system, it isn't all that big a deal for an expert to swap figure skating blades - though there are significant issues because the holes aren't in the same place. But all the pros I know of would make you buy both blades. I don't know of anyone who rents figure skating blades for trial skating.

As long as you don't get the parabolic model (the MK Pro is available in parabolic), the Coronation Ace and the MK Pro, last I knew, were said to be both relatively easy to sharpen, though over the years, many people have claimed that they come with inconsistent profiles from the factory. (I don't know if that is still true, now that they have switched to laser cutting). Both blades seem to be very common.

It is particularly important that you use the best skate tech you can for the initial sharpening (as well as mounting, and have him do the initial fitting), because that could involve a lot of reshaping. If that skate tech is better than the rest, it is probably worth staying with that person, unless you feel like learning to do it yourself, because one sharpening by a bad tech can effectively destroy your blades, and even different good techs do things differently from each other.

Sharpening for pros (if you mean figure skating coaches) isn't always a complete indicator of skill - like most skaters, many coaches tend to go to someone reasonably convenient to them. But in general that is probably much better than picking someone who most coaches don't trust to do their own skates. And remember that figure and hockey blades are different - someone good at one might not also happen to be good at the other. Speed and Nordic skates are even more different.