Group Lesson Progression Thoughts

[FigureSpins]

In group lessons, Freeskate tests are always a challenge, even to skaters with experience.  It seems like those skaters who "breeze through" the Basic levels always get stuck during Freeskate.  My kids were stuck between FS1 and FS2 for a full year before I took them out of groups to stop their frustration. 

[jjane45]

Freeskate tests are always a challenge, even to skaters with experience.  It seems like those skaters who "breeze through" the Basic levels always get stuck.  My kids were stuck between FS1 and FS2 for a full year before I took them out of groups to stop their frustration.  

From my personal observation, seems like FS2-FS4 it's the spins holding skaters back while FS5+ are usually the jumps.

Back to jenniturtle's question, I think it depends heavily on
1) whether she currently has sufficient ice time to work on skills learned from lessons
2) financial resources
3) how badly she wants to compete

not so much about skill level since competitions are available at all levels. Good luck!!

[Sierra]

Freeskate tests are always a challenge, even to skaters with experience.  It seems like those skaters who "breeze through" the Basic levels always get stuck.  My kids were stuck between FS1 and FS2 for a full year before I took them out of groups to stop their frustration. 

From my personal observation, seems like FS2-FS4 it's the spins holding skaters back while FS5+ are usually the jumps.

The only Freeskate test I ever failed was FS4. Sit spin. But it took me practically forever to go through Basic (and I failed quite a lot of Basic tests). I've breezed through all the jumps, since by FS3, 4 and 5, I was working on doubles in private lessons. By FS2/3 or so is a good time to start privates (that's when I started).

To the OP, since there are competitions at *all* levels, she can start competing whenever she wants to (as others have said). But local, in-house competitions are sufficient. Don't go driving all over the state for Basic Skills competitions. I see kids here that have ridiculously OTT dresses and expensive coaches and get driven up to 3-4 hours away.. for Basic 4 events.. (these are the ones that sandbag, too). Maybe if your kid just loves competing, maybe take her to one out-of-house competition a year..

[FigureSpins]

That's proves my point, Sierra.  Given your equestrian background you are somewhat unique, but by the same token, there are ballet dancers and gymnasts who also pick up skating just as quickly, so you're still inside the bell curve. 

IIRC, you've had to relearn every jump and spin during your private lessons.  I remember you posting about spin issues and cheated toe loop entries.  Maybe breezing through jumps and freeskate levels wasn't an achievement - the rink's group lesson program may have just had low standards.  *shrugs* I guess you saved some money by learning the basics in groups and then refining them in privates, but as you posted, it really is difficult to overcome muscle memory.

I totally agree about keeping Basic Skills competitions simple, local and fun.  Plan on going out for ice cream afterwards with her still wearing her dress, so she can show off.  Basic Skills competitions are participatory, so she will get a ribbon or medal, even if she doesn't place at the top of the podium.  Be prepared to highlight what went RIGHT and don't make a big deal about the standings.  Parents have to set the tone for sportsmanship by not complaining about judging, unfairness, or bad ice.  My girls are always complimented on how they interact with others at competitions - keep it friendly and positive.  Two moms have said that watching my girls wish others good luck and say they liked this or that, congratulating them even if they didn't win sets a great example for the younger skaters.

Just be aware that there are often evil vendors selling things at the competitions that will make your DD's eyes sparkle with desire, lol.

[Sierra]

My point was that some kids breeze through Basic and get stuck at Freeskate, and others crawl through Basic and breeze through Freeskate. I used myself as an example of the latter- tentatively skated through Basic, but did much better in Freeskate partly due to beginning privates. The cheated toe loop seems to come with the territory- I just had more trouble with it than most people. My spins are/were a mess no matter what lesson I'm in.
I'm still in group because it's a lightly attended one & the coaches will work on what I need to work on- spin variations, axels, doubles, Prelim moves. There is also only two coaches that ever run the freestyle group- one being my private coach and the other a coach I know well. I passed the Freeskate tests knowing that I skated them with good technique- it's unnecessary to go jumping to conclusions about my rink's standards.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I tend to agree with figurespins....my 10 yo dd had a very rigorous tester during LTS, all levels except ONE...that was Basic 4 and to this day-- even at Juv level, she still has one direction where her forward crossovers are not that good.   

[icefrog]

I have to agree with the above posters. I "skipped" some of the beginning ISI levels and had to spend entire pricey ice dance lessons relearning three turns I could do them, on flats which to my coach meant I couldn't do them. So I relearned them and now they are much better lol. The standards at my old old rink were extremely low haha

[jumpingbeansmom]

I have to agree with the above posters. I "skipped" some of the beginning ISI levels and had to spend entire pricey ice dance lessons relearning three turns I could do them, on flats which to my coach meant I couldn't do them. So I relearned them and now they are much better lol. The standards at my old old rink were extremely low haha

Funny thing...this same tester passed kids all the time that were really NOT executing the elements all that well...I also told my dd that I swear this particular coach saw something in my dd and knew she was going to end up being a competitive skater-- and she was little, only 7 when she passed FS6.  Now my dd is glad that this tester was tough on her, she has had to relearn very little.   Yes, she has had to step it up-- you know, a pre pre axel isn't like a juv axel and all that, but she was moving forward mostly and not back.

[jjane45]

My point was that some kids breeze through Basic and get stuck at Freeskate, and others crawl through Basic and breeze through Freeskate.

LOL you are definitely an exception! Could it be caused by additional ice time and introduction of private lessons?

Now my dd is glad that this tester was tough on her, she has had to relearn very little.   

Your DD is lucky, really lucky.

On the other hand, I keep hearing people say not to expect high standards from group lesson coaches, only in privates. Which unfortunately then becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Sierra]

LOL you are definitely an exception! Could it be caused by additional ice time and introduction of private lessons?


On the other hand, I keep hearing people say not to expect high standards from group lesson coaches, only in privates. Which unfortunately then becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, I started privates shortly after passing FS1. I also had adequate practice time. The privates played a big part. I did pick up the jumps pretty quickly though. The spins, not so much.

The group coaches [at my rink] will pass a jump as long as it is done with semblance of proper technique and lands on one foot and doesn't have any egregious errors. Same for spins- as long as it's in proper position and gets three solid revolutions. The second time I tested FS4, the coach had me straighten and close my free leg in my sit spin before checking it off on the test paper.

[jenniturtle]

Its great that some kids get thru freeskate 6 when they are 7 years old. My daughter just started at 9 yoa. She just one day decided she wanted to take skating lessons. She is getting practice time , she goes for 3 hours Saturday and Sundays- but she goes with a friend so who knows how much she is really practicing!! I have noticed how some parents with children who have been skating since they were 5 act like their DD's are so much better. Hey wait until mine has been skating for 5 years and we'll see. She has only been skating for a year!!

[FigureSpins]

I have two wonderful 12-year old students who also decided to take up skating this year.  They're doing really well and the practice is absolutely key.  They're rink rats - I see them at several public sessions each week, which has fueled their progress.

Don't worry about how the other parents act.  The best way to defuse it, from my viewpoint, is to be friendly, compliment their skaters, accept any advice with a smile/thanks, but keep your distance so you don't become part of any complaining that might go on in the stands.

Every kid progresses at their own rate and it varies as the child grows.  I had one girl who was a slow starter, had a few months of awesome progress, but a growth spurt and school committments put her on a plateau.

[FigureSpins]

On the other hand, I keep hearing people say not to expect high standards from group lesson coaches, only in privates. Which unfortunately then becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you think about group lessons as a revenue-maker for the rink, it makes sense.  The evaluations are not to decide what level the skater performs at so much as it is to determine what groups the school needs to offer during the next session.

The goal of a rink-run program is to keep skaters coming back, either for group lessons, other classes/higher-level programs, or to feed the figure skating/hockey programs.  If a skater is going to get discouraged and quit because the instructor wouldn't allow them to move up without mastering a one-foot spin, the rink will pressure the director and instructors to ease up, assuming that they can pick up one or two missing skills during the next level practices.  So they get stuck there, learning things they should already know, and holding up any skaters who are ready to learn harder elements.

When enrollments are low on a per-level basis, the director will combine groups, so while the kid maybe have "passed" Basic 8, their next-session group may very well be Basic 8/Freeskate 1&2.  In a way, it saves face, but the skater thinks what they did in Basic 8 was good enough, so it doesn't inspire THEM to work harder and do things more perfectly.

I have a skater in FS1 who really should be in Basic 7/8, but they kept moving her up to spare her feelings and making her promise to work on certain elements, like three turns and spins.  She's also not strong, nor does she have good balance, so that's holding her back.  I do think she would have quit skating if she had been held back one more time.  I never see her at public or freestyle sessions.  I actually care, so I'm going to give her a parents a heads up this week about her lack of practice and need for some training & conditioning.

[jumpingbeansmom]

LOL you are definitely an exception! Could it be caused by additional ice time and introduction of private lessons?


Your DD is lucky, really lucky.

She didn't think so at the time-- especially since she was 7 years old, but she 'gets' now that she was better off in the end

[jjane45]

If a skater is going to get discouraged and quit because the instructor wouldn't allow them to move up without mastering a one-foot spin, the rink will pressure the director and instructors to ease up...

If a skater's one-foot spin is unpassably weak to a degree of quitting, he or she will get stuck on the next level and quit anyways. Just saying, thank you for a different perspective.

On the other hand, guess my mind was more on the standard of teaching instead of moving up through levels. (sorry for the confusion) I like my coach pointing out the technical flaws and fix them, better than just let them pass and make me relearn things down the road. Fundamental things like crossovers or 3 turns (see icefrog above). It shows who is actually putting heart into group lesson students and that comes handy when it's time to choose a private coach.

(Playing devil's advocate here: Is it really? Would the skater / parent think that coach is just unrealistically harsh and prejudiced?)

There was a little girl in my group lesson who took FS4 more than once. Her jumps were kind of OK but the sit spin was nowhere near passing, not low enough / lacking revolutions. My coach really hesitated and told her mom that the girl should stay in FS4 for another session because she is not strong enough (paraphrasing here) for FS5 yet. Coach from the other (ETA: concurrent) group lesson moved her up. I wonder what her mom thinks about my coach. On the other hand, I do think group lesson coaches are pressured to some extent to pass weak sit spins, it's just a huge obstacle!

[FigureSpins]

They will get stuck, and they might quit then, but from the rink's perspective, they've gotten another session enrollment before s/he left.  I hate to be crass, but the reality is that the pressure will stay on the coach, or a less-strict instructor will be assigned to the next level, which seems to be what happened in the example you gave.

That's why I liked my last rink: if enough of my group lesson students re-signed, they became the core of my next group session.  If they were in Basic 6, and 6 out of 8 students passed, those six (if they all signed up again) would form my Basic 7 class of the following session. 

The skaters who remained behind went to a different instructor, who would move them up to my class if they mastered everything in Basic 6 by the third week.  I liked that system because it put the onus on the skaters to meet the standard.  Typically, the kids who didn't move up were the ones who were never at the rink except for lesson time, leaving as soon as the class was over.  The process gave them a concrete goal  to work towards, and any students who needed a different style of instruction were given a break from the same coach. 

Another thing that helped was that the Director made the goals and standards very clear and consistent for everyone.
The program was busting at the seams, so we rarely had to combine classes.

As for parents thinking that the coaches are just being mean by not passing the kids, that could be true.  I always let parents know at the halfway point when I think a skater isn't going to be able to move up by the end of the session.  I have a frank discussion with both the parents and the skaters.  I give clear reasons on what needs more work and why they'll probably be held back.  I also explain that the element(s) are vital building blocks and it's frustrating to be stuck, but it's better to be stuck for one session building the foundation rather than being stuck for a year while trying to paint the roof, lol.  Truthfully, I don't get paid enough for group lessons to take that time, but I actually do want skaters to stick it out.  It's a valuable life lesson to overcome an obstacle or discouragement.

[jumpingbeansmom]

figurespins-- I always felt like the testing coach (the director of LTS) was harder on my dd than many of the other kids...maybe she saw something in her?  I don't know...but we are both glad now that she made her learn correctly.   I think the only thing she once gave her sort of a by on was a Tstop

[FigureSpins]

I treat all the students the same, but perhaps that coach was tough on your DD because she knew she could work at a higher level.  Perhaps the Director did see some talent and wanted to impress on her the value of hard work and perfection.

[isakswings]

I have a skater in FS1 who really should be in Basic 7/8, but they kept moving her up to spare her feelings and making her promise to work on certain elements, like three turns and spins.  She's also not strong, nor does she have good balance, so that's holding her back.  I do think she would have quit skating if she had been held back one more time.  I never see her at public or freestyle sessions.  I actually care, so I'm going to give her a parents a heads up this week about her lack of practice and need for some training & conditioning.

I think that is the problem with passing skaters before they are truly ready for that level. Then if the same skater hires a private coach and shows an interest in competing, it makes competing more difficult for the skater. Not to mention the coach ends up re-teaching skills. My daughter started taking private lessons with her coach in November. She was in her first competition the following June. She was still taking learn to skate. We were very cautious and her coach made sure the LTS coaches knew we did not want dd to pass her level until she was ready to compete at that level. Learn to skate is such a good deal that it is hard NOT to want to take the classes. But at the same time, you take a risk that your skater may pass a level before they are truly ready to compete at that level. I think it is good that rinks want to encourage more people to skate, but I also think it is important for kids to learn that it does take some effort to pass a class. My daughter did not pass her Basic 1 class. The reason the LTS coach gave was that she had a hard time stopping. Dd was disappointed but not crushed. She practiced stopping and passed her next class. It wasn't a big deal. I think it is better to NOT pass then to pass and not be ready for the next level. In my dd's case, stopping is crucial... the coach was right to not pass her.

[Sk8tmum]

Thread drift ... maybe it's time to split this into another thread? We're way away from where the OP started us off ... and it is an interesting discussion.

[Isk8NYC]

Done, since I was one of the thread drift perpetrators.

[Sk8tmum]

Here's my other thought: some coaches will promote for 'social reasons' to keep kids with their friends or for mistaken kindness: my tiniest was given a stage b/c the coach 'felt sorry' for her and wanted to cheer her up (which meant that the next year was a frustrating struggle).

And, I've certainly seen the "bully parent" who wears a coach down to the point where they pass the kid just to get the parent off their back.

[Isk8NYC]

In fairness, I've been lucky enough to have parents who recognized that their kid was struggling and asked for them to stay at the same level to develop some mastery or to break up an unhealthy in-class situation.